Special Materials Pricing

[Jin]

Anyone else find it...I'll say odd...the way most special materials are priced?

I find it odd that 35lbs of adamantine for a suit of banded mail costs the same as the 50lbs for suit of full plate.

Anyone know where I can find a good set of pricing purely based on the weight of the material used instead of some random number?

 

[melkorspawn]

adamantium

*Snikt* No clue.

 

[mvincent]

I believe in the Draconomicon (page 278) and Heroes of Battle, raw adamantine is 100 gp per pound

 

[outlier]

Not to nit pick, but the DMG prices are for *worked* admantium items. We are given that enough to make a 'weapon' adds 3000gp to the cost of making that weapon. What you don't know is how much of that 3000gp is the actual raw admantium and how much is labor or other materials needed to work the admantium. For all we know, the process involves several types of raw ore in addition to the admantium ore itself, common but expensive materials added to the forge & used for tempering and quenching, etc. Shoot, you probably wear out a few anvils working the stuff . We only know that admantium is rare (and therefore can't be too cheap), that the final product requires a great deal more work and raw materials. I doubt anybody was really thinking of that when they made the simple rules (probably just didn't think it justified more complexity), but taken as its written, the fact that the cost is not proportional to weight argues for less expensive material - it's not the mass of material that's driving the cost.

 

[Jin]

I believe in the Draconomicon (page 278) and Heroes of Battle, raw adamantine is 100 gp per pound

Thanks, I'll look at those sources.

Not to nit pick, but the DMG prices are for *worked* admantium items. We are given that enough to make a 'weapon' adds 3000gp to the cost of making that weapon. What you don't know is how much of that 3000gp is the actual raw admantium and how much is labor or other materials needed to work the admantium. For all we know, the process involves several types of raw ore in addition to the admantium ore itself, common but expensive materials added to the forge & used for tempering and quenching, etc. Shoot, you probably wear out a few anvils working the stuff . We only know that admantium is rare (and therefore can't be too cheap), that the final product requires a great deal more work and raw materials. I doubt anybody was really thinking of that when they made the simple rules (probably just didn't think it justified more complexity), but taken as its written, the fact that the cost is not proportional to weight argues for less expensive material - it's not the mass of material that's driving the cost.

You are exactly correct as far as I’m concerned. This line of thought still follows my above point. Let me word it slightly differently.

Why does it cost the same amount to work 35lbs & 50lbs of adamantine? (Or any other special material for that matter.)

The prices for steel items vary quite a bit. I personally think they system they worked out is much more complex & convoluted than a simple value per pound of raw or worked material method.

Based on raw materials costs, as for raw iron/steel, you need 3.5gp for banded & 5gp of for full plate. You need 1000x this (in gp value) for adamantine.

So, how then does it cost 600% as much for the iron/steel, but only a fraction more for the more exotic materials?

Adamantine full plate costs just over 8% more to make, but weighs over 42% more than its banded counterpart. What happened to that 600% markup for the labor to make the more advanced suit?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why does it cost the same amount to work 35lbs & 50lbs of adamantine? (Or any other special material for that matter.)

It doesn't.

How much does adamantine banded mail cost? 15,250gp.
How much in "raw materials" cost? 5,083gp, 3sp, 4cp.

How much does adamantine full plate cost? 16,500gp.
How much in "raw materials" cost? 5,500gp.

It's ~10% more expensive in raw materials cost to work the adamantine that goes into full plate than that which goes into banded.

Perhaps full plate is slightly more efficient in its use of raw materials, which is why it doesn't cost ~43% more to work (the strict difference in weight).

EDIT:

For the record, the raw materials cost of the base armor is:

Banded: 83.3gp
Full Plate: 500gp

 

[Jin]

It doesn't.

How much does adamantine banded mail cost? 15,250gp.
How much in "raw materials" cost? 5,083gp, 3sp, 4cp.

How much does adamantine full plate cost? 16,500gp.
How much in "raw materials" cost? 5,500gp.

It's ~10% more expensive in raw materials cost to work the adamantine that goes into full plate than that which goes into banded.

Perhaps full plate is slightly more efficient in its use of raw materials, which is why it doesn't cost ~43% more to work (the strict difference in weight).

EDIT:

For the record, the raw materials cost of the base armor is:

Banded: 83.3gp
Full Plate: 500gp

Isn’t the raw materials cost of adamantine 3500gp (35lbs*100gp) for banded & 5000gp (50lbs*100gp) for full plate?

(Iron would be 3.5gp (35lbs*1sp) & 50lbs*1sp.)

What I’m referring to by the cost to work the armor is the flat +15000gp for any heavy armor made of adamantine. That’s what really doesn’t make since to me.

 

[Jack Simth]

What I’m referring to by the cost to work the armor is the flat +15000gp for any heavy armor made of adamantine. That’s what really doesn’t make since to me.

I suspect that's more a matter of the effect you get for the price - Heavy Adamantium armor grants DR 3/- regardless of whether it's splint mail, banded mail, half-plate, or full plate. Apparently DR 3/- from armor that can't be supressed by an AMF or a targeted Dispel Magic is worth an extra 15,000 gp as the game is designed (10,000 gp for DR 2/-, 5,000 gp for DR 1/-, for medium and light armor, respectively). You get a similar effect with many armor enchantments - a +2 (or +2 equivalent) armor costs an extra 4,000 gp on top of armor and masterwork costs, regardless of how much material is actually enchanted - that +2 costs the same to add wether it's added to Leather or Full Plate (assuming you already have the masterwork leather and masterwork full plate to enchant, of course). With adamantium, the effect is masked a bit, as the DR 1/- is only availabe on Light armor, DR 2/- only on medium, and DR 3/- only on heavy.

Edit:
Note that DR 5/Magic (the Invulnerability enchantment from the SRD) added to existing mundane masterwork armor is worth at least an additional 16,000 gp (+3 equivalent ability, must have at least a +1 enchantment - +4 total equivalence on the armor) but is much easier to bypass (+1 weapon, anyone?) by the time you can get it than is the DR 3/- granted by heavy adamantium armor (which can still be enchanted with no stacking cost penalties....) for an extra 15,000 gp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Isn’t the raw materials cost of adamantine 3500gp (35lbs*100gp) for banded & 5000gp (50lbs*100gp) for full plate?

No. The total raw materials cost to make any nonmagical item is 1/3 of the item's market price.

The rules are silent as to what actually makes up that cost, but it is assumed that it includes the actual material you're using to make the armor as well as single-use, disposable materials (like the oil, water, and salt water used for quenching swords), as well as "maintenance expenses" (forge repair, etc.).

Moreover, banded mail is not 35 pounds of one particular metal. Similarly, full plate is not 50 pounds of one particular metal. They both include various pieces of leather, cloth, copper rivets, enamel, etching, and other materials.

 

[Jin]

Jack,

I fully agree with you. You're paying for the effect in the current system & that's all.

Take jewelry for example. Store will have necklaces split up into different weight classifications. You could say the effect of each is a bit more "bling" or some such. You're still paying by the ounce plus even more on top if one type takes more skill to craft.

No. The total raw materials cost to make any nonmagical item is 1/3 of the item's market price.

So what you're saying is that it's actually much harder & costlier to make a lower tech suit of banded? That's what the rules seems to say, unless you make the suit out of the base iron/steel.

The rules are silent as to what actually makes up that cost, but it is assumed that it includes the actual material you're using to make the armor as well as single-use, disposable materials (like the oil, water, and salt water used for quenching swords), as well as "maintenance expenses" (forge repair, etc.).

Moreover, banded mail is not 35 pounds of one particular metal. Similarly, full plate is not 50 pounds of one particular metal. They both include various pieces of leather, cloth, copper rivets, enamel, etching, and other materials.

Of course it takes more than just metal to make the armor. So say it's some % of the total weight, any %. They should be about the same, but who here really knows for sure.

That doesn't change what I pointed out above. What you are pointing out however is that the leather & padding under the metal is really expensive in a lower tech suit of banded (excepting iron/steel anyway). Seems odd to me.