Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Spell level of Warlock Invocations for Dispel Magic DC
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 8965272" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>They're fairly simply worded (except steal spell). However, when shared before, there was a lot of feedback and discussion like below - so I encourage DMs to work the ideas out for themselves if they like them. If you really want you can search ENworld for my name and the spell name of some of these spells. People come to these with preconceptions on balance and they rarely line up with what playtesting over the decades has revealed to me. However, I rarely convince people that my experience matters more than their assumptions.</p><p></p><p>I do have to note that campaign design has a huge impact on the effectiveness of these spells. In a world where the PCs are the only spell casters these are irrelevant. In a world where your local farmer is a 7th level wizard, these take on a different role. My setting is designed so that only a small percentage of people have powers of a 3rd level PC or above. A typical human that studies their entire life might become a 5th level mage. An elf over a thousand years might reach 9th level. Unless you're God touched, advancing as quickly and as high as a PC is effectively impossible. That means that many of these spells are only useful amongst battles of Godtouched which are fairly rare.</p><p>It always requires a roll (no automatic use for spells of level 3 or below). The offset here is that you have to prepare it, and it is useless against certain spells that only have 1 legal target. For a lot of these spells, you need to factor in that 'preparation' cost to see the balance.</p><p>That is not how it plays out. People get out of the way of a fireball, or move out of range of the spell before it goes off, or do other things - but generally it plays weaker than counterspell. There are <em>select</em> situations in which it plays out better than counterspell, but not many. People see this as a cheap counterspell and then learn it is more limited.</p><p>These have decades of playtesting behind them. They're non-problematic because of what you need to give up in order to get them - they are conditional and most of these spells fail against counterspell in important ways - meaning that counterspell tends to be more universally useful - but situationally some of these spells <em>can</em> be more powerful. </p><p></p><p>Think back to an old goodie like Spell Immunity from prior editions. It gave a PC immunity to a specified spell. It was a 4th level "Priest" Spell in 2nd Edition. There is a difference in the design here - it isn't the old "use X spell to counter Y specific spell". It is a broader technique for countering magical attacks - but you have to pick your method when preparing/learning spells. A spell dualist might select 4 or 5 of these spells if they are going to hunt a wizard - but most mages can't affford to have more than 1 or 2 of them prepared. </p><p></p><p>They create more dynamic situations than just relying upon dispel and counterspell. That means there are ups - where they are more effective than just countering a spell - and downs - where you wish you had counterspell because deflection/delay/steal/etc... just don't do anything useful for you. </p><p></p><p>Deflection is useless when the spell being cast can only target the caster, or otherwise only has 1 legal target due to range restrictions.</p><p></p><p>Delay spell often requires people to take a further step to effectively negate the spell benefits for the caster. Further, it sometimes doesn't really change the battle at all. A note is that it is a concentration spell for the Delay Spell caster to 'hold the spell' in stasis in this edition. </p><p></p><p>Suppress Spell sounds cool - but most times when it is cast, either the opponent knows you have it and can anticipate what you've suppressed (or identify it with an identify spell if they have a chance), or there is the chance that the spell you anticipated seeing never comes up for natural reasons. This is less of a problem with the advanced version, but that requires a high level slot and effectively is a counterspell that lingers.</p></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 8965272, member: 2629"] They're fairly simply worded (except steal spell). However, when shared before, there was a lot of feedback and discussion like below - so I encourage DMs to work the ideas out for themselves if they like them. If you really want you can search ENworld for my name and the spell name of some of these spells. People come to these with preconceptions on balance and they rarely line up with what playtesting over the decades has revealed to me. However, I rarely convince people that my experience matters more than their assumptions. I do have to note that campaign design has a huge impact on the effectiveness of these spells. In a world where the PCs are the only spell casters these are irrelevant. In a world where your local farmer is a 7th level wizard, these take on a different role. My setting is designed so that only a small percentage of people have powers of a 3rd level PC or above. A typical human that studies their entire life might become a 5th level mage. An elf over a thousand years might reach 9th level. Unless you're God touched, advancing as quickly and as high as a PC is effectively impossible. That means that many of these spells are only useful amongst battles of Godtouched which are fairly rare. It always requires a roll (no automatic use for spells of level 3 or below). The offset here is that you have to prepare it, and it is useless against certain spells that only have 1 legal target. For a lot of these spells, you need to factor in that 'preparation' cost to see the balance. That is not how it plays out. People get out of the way of a fireball, or move out of range of the spell before it goes off, or do other things - but generally it plays weaker than counterspell. There are [I]select[/I] situations in which it plays out better than counterspell, but not many. People see this as a cheap counterspell and then learn it is more limited. These have decades of playtesting behind them. They're non-problematic because of what you need to give up in order to get them - they are conditional and most of these spells fail against counterspell in important ways - meaning that counterspell tends to be more universally useful - but situationally some of these spells [I]can[/I] be more powerful. Think back to an old goodie like Spell Immunity from prior editions. It gave a PC immunity to a specified spell. It was a 4th level "Priest" Spell in 2nd Edition. There is a difference in the design here - it isn't the old "use X spell to counter Y specific spell". It is a broader technique for countering magical attacks - but you have to pick your method when preparing/learning spells. A spell dualist might select 4 or 5 of these spells if they are going to hunt a wizard - but most mages can't affford to have more than 1 or 2 of them prepared. They create more dynamic situations than just relying upon dispel and counterspell. That means there are ups - where they are more effective than just countering a spell - and downs - where you wish you had counterspell because deflection/delay/steal/etc... just don't do anything useful for you. Deflection is useless when the spell being cast can only target the caster, or otherwise only has 1 legal target due to range restrictions. Delay spell often requires people to take a further step to effectively negate the spell benefits for the caster. Further, it sometimes doesn't really change the battle at all. A note is that it is a concentration spell for the Delay Spell caster to 'hold the spell' in stasis in this edition. Suppress Spell sounds cool - but most times when it is cast, either the opponent knows you have it and can anticipate what you've suppressed (or identify it with an identify spell if they have a chance), or there is the chance that the spell you anticipated seeing never comes up for natural reasons. This is less of a problem with the advanced version, but that requires a high level slot and effectively is a counterspell that lingers.[/quote] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Spell level of Warlock Invocations for Dispel Magic DC
Top