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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6167815" data-attributes="member: 6669384"><p>Since you insist...</p><p></p><p>The setting was D&D 3.0, the creature was an Epic monster, something title a "Colossus". It was a construct, Colossal in size, with a DR50/+5 Magic, and it had a 50 foot radius of <em>Anti Magic Field</em> around it. (Meaning that there is no such thing as a +5 weapon anywhere near it.)</p><p></p><p>I proposed using large boulders and using <em>Shrink Item</em> on them, reducing them to the size of a pea. Now use a sling, or even a blow-gun, to fire them at the Colossus. As they enter the AMF the spell on them goes down and you have a barrage of catapult stones coming in.</p><p></p><p>The DM argued that "Conservation of Momentum" will apply, and the stones will lose speed as soon as they enter the <em>Anti Magic Field</em>.</p><p></p><p>And thus was born the Hamster cannon. Not to kill the Collosus, but to deliver a fatal blow to the concept of applying physics to magic.</p><p></p><p>Start with a mule wearing a pack saddle. Now load him down with as much stone as he can carry and still stans. (Walking isn't needed). <em>Polymorph</em> it into a hamster.</p><p></p><p>Because gear the target is wearing gets absorbed into the new form if it's something inappropriate for that new form, all the rocks and the pack saddle essentially vanish. </p><p></p><p>Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the loaded mule weighed 2,000 lbs. Reduced to a 4 ounce hamster, that's an 8,000 to 1 reduction.</p><p></p><p>Now the problem with the "conservation of Momentum" argument is that the DM was thinking of the surface of the world as stationary. It isn't. If the world runs on physics, then the planet spins, like the Earth, and it orbits a sun. Earth surface velocity from spin varies from a bit over 1,000 mph at the equator to near zero at the poles. To keep the math simple, we'll presume the caster is in a temperate zone, and the speed is an even thousand miles an hour.</p><p></p><p>The Earth orbits the sun at an average speed of 62,500 mph (it varies with the season). If the <em>Polymorph</em> takes place at midnight, you add the surface rotational velocity to the orbital velocity. If it happens at noon, you subtract it.</p><p></p><p>In either case, if you want to apply Conservation of Momentum when the stone (or hamster) gets thrown into that AMF, you also have to apply it when the original transformation takes place.</p><p></p><p>So, 63,500 of planetary motion, multiplied by 8,000 (the loss of mass) yields a velocity of 508,000,000 miles per hour. That's about sixty percent of the speed of light, and that's how fast the hamster takes off the moment you <em>Polymorph</em> it.</p><p></p><p>The resultant shock wave will tear away approximately 30% of the planetary atmosphere, and the caster will get dragged along by the horrendous draft, and hurled into space.</p><p></p><p>Now if you do this at sunrise the speed is slightly lower, but the trajectory is straight up. Do it at sunset and you get the same reduced speed, but the trajectory is straight down. The impact would result in more damage than the meteor that created Iceland, when it punched through the Earth's crust. In short, disrupt crustal tectonics, a crater larger than Tuscarora, and the area goes volcanic.</p><p></p><p>So do it at midnight, using the spell at maximum range, from a protected bunker, and set up to the east of your target. I don't care what it is, it's dead.</p><p></p><p>Now, to be fair, the hamster dies as well. By the rules, even though he'll incinerate almost instantly, his death isn't official until the end of the round, so you have six full seconds of warp-speed hamster before his ashes revert to those of a non warp-speed donkey. After which a ton of rocks fall on someone. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>We had a discussion on the relative aerodynamics of hamsters, and whether he would do better butt-first or nose first. The final conclusion was, if I recall correctly, that because of the turbulence caused by the legs and ears (while they lasted), he'd be a knuckleball no matter how he started.</p><p></p><p>Don't even think about using an Elephant for this. A large male African Elephant can range as heavy as 13,500 lbs, before we begin loading him down. The Elephant/Hamster conversion at midnight should come out to 3,810,000,000 mph at launch point (presuming he can carry as much stone as the donkey), which is several times the speed of light. Presuming that Einstein was right about Relativity, the actual velocity would top out at something like 0.9999999999 C., but the impact mass would be near infinite. In the "straight down" scenario, good by planet.</p><p></p><p>Worldwide destruction for something as simple as a non-epic 5th level spell! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The point of this exercise in the hyper-mathematics of launching Hamsters into orbit (or Elephants, for that matter) is that if you're going to try and apply real-world physics to a situation that can't actually happen in the real world (i.e. objects spontaneously gaining or losing mass), you have to apply it all the time, not just as a way to limit what PCs can do.</p><p></p><p>An arrow fired by someone under <em>Enlarge Person</em> should revert to normal size as soon as it leaves the bow. It's mass drops by a factor of eight (half size, cubed since it's a three dimensional object), so it's velocity should multiply by a like factor. And since kinetic energy damage is based on mass times velocity <em>squared,</em> the damage on impact should be 8 times greater, not the measly "1D8 becomes 2 D6" conversion from the weapons size chart. (Listed damage, divided by 8 because of loss of mass, multiplied by 64 because of the increase in velocity). </p><p></p><p>But this is an example of the way most people try to apply "real world physics" to games, and what happens when they do. They seldom realize the size of the task they're undertaking, and end up applying "gut level feel" of how they think physics *should* work in that situation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 6167815, member: 6669384"] Since you insist... The setting was D&D 3.0, the creature was an Epic monster, something title a "Colossus". It was a construct, Colossal in size, with a DR50/+5 Magic, and it had a 50 foot radius of [I]Anti Magic Field[/I] around it. (Meaning that there is no such thing as a +5 weapon anywhere near it.) I proposed using large boulders and using [I]Shrink Item[/I] on them, reducing them to the size of a pea. Now use a sling, or even a blow-gun, to fire them at the Colossus. As they enter the AMF the spell on them goes down and you have a barrage of catapult stones coming in. The DM argued that "Conservation of Momentum" will apply, and the stones will lose speed as soon as they enter the [I]Anti Magic Field[/I]. And thus was born the Hamster cannon. Not to kill the Collosus, but to deliver a fatal blow to the concept of applying physics to magic. Start with a mule wearing a pack saddle. Now load him down with as much stone as he can carry and still stans. (Walking isn't needed). [I]Polymorph[/I] it into a hamster. Because gear the target is wearing gets absorbed into the new form if it's something inappropriate for that new form, all the rocks and the pack saddle essentially vanish. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the loaded mule weighed 2,000 lbs. Reduced to a 4 ounce hamster, that's an 8,000 to 1 reduction. Now the problem with the "conservation of Momentum" argument is that the DM was thinking of the surface of the world as stationary. It isn't. If the world runs on physics, then the planet spins, like the Earth, and it orbits a sun. Earth surface velocity from spin varies from a bit over 1,000 mph at the equator to near zero at the poles. To keep the math simple, we'll presume the caster is in a temperate zone, and the speed is an even thousand miles an hour. The Earth orbits the sun at an average speed of 62,500 mph (it varies with the season). If the [I]Polymorph[/I] takes place at midnight, you add the surface rotational velocity to the orbital velocity. If it happens at noon, you subtract it. In either case, if you want to apply Conservation of Momentum when the stone (or hamster) gets thrown into that AMF, you also have to apply it when the original transformation takes place. So, 63,500 of planetary motion, multiplied by 8,000 (the loss of mass) yields a velocity of 508,000,000 miles per hour. That's about sixty percent of the speed of light, and that's how fast the hamster takes off the moment you [I]Polymorph[/I] it. The resultant shock wave will tear away approximately 30% of the planetary atmosphere, and the caster will get dragged along by the horrendous draft, and hurled into space. Now if you do this at sunrise the speed is slightly lower, but the trajectory is straight up. Do it at sunset and you get the same reduced speed, but the trajectory is straight down. The impact would result in more damage than the meteor that created Iceland, when it punched through the Earth's crust. In short, disrupt crustal tectonics, a crater larger than Tuscarora, and the area goes volcanic. So do it at midnight, using the spell at maximum range, from a protected bunker, and set up to the east of your target. I don't care what it is, it's dead. Now, to be fair, the hamster dies as well. By the rules, even though he'll incinerate almost instantly, his death isn't official until the end of the round, so you have six full seconds of warp-speed hamster before his ashes revert to those of a non warp-speed donkey. After which a ton of rocks fall on someone. :) We had a discussion on the relative aerodynamics of hamsters, and whether he would do better butt-first or nose first. The final conclusion was, if I recall correctly, that because of the turbulence caused by the legs and ears (while they lasted), he'd be a knuckleball no matter how he started. Don't even think about using an Elephant for this. A large male African Elephant can range as heavy as 13,500 lbs, before we begin loading him down. The Elephant/Hamster conversion at midnight should come out to 3,810,000,000 mph at launch point (presuming he can carry as much stone as the donkey), which is several times the speed of light. Presuming that Einstein was right about Relativity, the actual velocity would top out at something like 0.9999999999 C., but the impact mass would be near infinite. In the "straight down" scenario, good by planet. Worldwide destruction for something as simple as a non-epic 5th level spell! :) The point of this exercise in the hyper-mathematics of launching Hamsters into orbit (or Elephants, for that matter) is that if you're going to try and apply real-world physics to a situation that can't actually happen in the real world (i.e. objects spontaneously gaining or losing mass), you have to apply it all the time, not just as a way to limit what PCs can do. An arrow fired by someone under [I]Enlarge Person[/I] should revert to normal size as soon as it leaves the bow. It's mass drops by a factor of eight (half size, cubed since it's a three dimensional object), so it's velocity should multiply by a like factor. And since kinetic energy damage is based on mass times velocity [I]squared,[/I] the damage on impact should be 8 times greater, not the measly "1D8 becomes 2 D6" conversion from the weapons size chart. (Listed damage, divided by 8 because of loss of mass, multiplied by 64 because of the increase in velocity). But this is an example of the way most people try to apply "real world physics" to games, and what happens when they do. They seldom realize the size of the task they're undertaking, and end up applying "gut level feel" of how they think physics *should* work in that situation. [/QUOTE]
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