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Spells dealing cold damage. effects?
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<blockquote data-quote="Dozen" data-source="post: 6168189" data-attributes="member: 6698275"><p>I'm not trying to convince anyone of that! He says my rules for physics <em>aren't actually rules for physics</em>. That <strong>pisses me off. </strong>Well, not anymore. I find I'm comparably calm right now. Greenfield was a lot more respectful in his last post - it's only natural that I reciprocate his efforts.</p><p></p><p>Greenfield, read on, I think we might reach a conclusion here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What, so I should define for you the exact position of Arcana clouds for every setting's every square mile in casual conversation? Simply not observing it doesn't cause my argument to lose merit. We know arcana exist, and when we cast spells, we prove it's there. The same goes for air: we can't actually see the damn thing. We aren't aware of it's exact position, or composition at any point in time. We can find out it's properties through research, experiments. (You may note that's what spellcasters do to various degrees, but that's a different story.)</p><p>And we haven't learned everything yet. That doesn't mean I handwave the rules governing it. I would very much like to know, but nobody told me yet, nor have I figured it out alone. </p><p></p><p>So it's not to say I don't handwave anything. I do retreat to... how you said, Credibility? Yes, I see that was it. So I do when I reach my limits, but deliberately at the highest possible denominator. The premise arcana works the way the books say it does, um, somehow, is a premise I had to accept due to lack of information, but I could explain everything related based on the premise. I see my magic-users know how to do it, and that enough for me - why it works the way it does would be nice to know, but so are the limits of the game and my intellect.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I... find it a little hurtful you'd say I ignore this is a game, but fine. I can endure this much, let's pretend you didn't say that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For a branch I actually did, but, uhh, I can see why you might arrive at that conclusion on the other two. I should have been clearer here, my bad.</p><p></p><p>Let's run through one of them in depth. Assume the magic in question utilizes oaths or pacts. In such a case the component could be(not necessarily IS) a sacrifice. When the recipient is not specified, the material is a symbolic sacrifice for power. The consciousness of the multiverse(yes, that's canon) accepts your sacrifice as something you own and willingly give up to it to twist itself a bit for you. And since you should not have access to it in the future, the component <em>should </em>disappear. I stressed 'should' because, thanks to the conservation of matter and energy, it cannot. There is(isn't?) a concept of nonexistence, but you cannot simply make something not a thing - that would require changing the fundamental rules of the plane you are on. Thus the matter enters the void where vestiges reside. The vestigial void isn't even empty space - it's nothing in as a literal sense as humanly understandable. The component still exists, but, lacking free will, it can never come in contact with you ever again, so it might as well doesn't as far as you're concerned.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe, but surely not completely. The astral plane is a <em>different plane of existence</em>. Not every rule of the prime material applies to it. Physicists believe(and we're talking actual, widely accepted experts here, not crazy basement-dwellers), provided there are different universes, they would have different physical rules and properties compared to ours. By writing subjective physics off as unrealistic, you discredit their theories.</p><p></p><p>And even if that wasn't the case, <em>adding </em>to the rules of physics for the setting's sake and <em>changing </em>or flat out <em>ignoring </em>them for the same reason are visibly different. I don't mind if a new splashbook comes along with a new branch of magic that says "X and Y works that way". I think: "Sure, fine with me. I'll just find a logically satisfying explanation and implement it in my system." The book gives you a premise you ha- okay, you don't <em>have </em>to accept it, but it's easier to do so instead of coming up with something on the fly. Credibility rears it's head, but I don't mind him here. As long as it helps me explain what's below it within clear physical rules.</p><p></p><p>I did the same when I bought my copy of Tome of Magic. Binders were a big challenge(Implementing <em>nonexistence </em>gave me a massive headache). I didn't so much apply real physics to it as I accepted the physics the creators made up. But I did apply real physics and clear rules to everything they didn't explain to fill the blanks. </p><p></p><p>To surmise, I believe my games still utilize realism more than the other two you mentioned, even if they are fundamentally required.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dozen, post: 6168189, member: 6698275"] I'm not trying to convince anyone of that! He says my rules for physics [I]aren't actually rules for physics[/I]. That [B]pisses me off. [/B]Well, not anymore. I find I'm comparably calm right now. Greenfield was a lot more respectful in his last post - it's only natural that I reciprocate his efforts. Greenfield, read on, I think we might reach a conclusion here. What, so I should define for you the exact position of Arcana clouds for every setting's every square mile in casual conversation? Simply not observing it doesn't cause my argument to lose merit. We know arcana exist, and when we cast spells, we prove it's there. The same goes for air: we can't actually see the damn thing. We aren't aware of it's exact position, or composition at any point in time. We can find out it's properties through research, experiments. (You may note that's what spellcasters do to various degrees, but that's a different story.) And we haven't learned everything yet. That doesn't mean I handwave the rules governing it. I would very much like to know, but nobody told me yet, nor have I figured it out alone. So it's not to say I don't handwave anything. I do retreat to... how you said, Credibility? Yes, I see that was it. So I do when I reach my limits, but deliberately at the highest possible denominator. The premise arcana works the way the books say it does, um, somehow, is a premise I had to accept due to lack of information, but I could explain everything related based on the premise. I see my magic-users know how to do it, and that enough for me - why it works the way it does would be nice to know, but so are the limits of the game and my intellect. I... find it a little hurtful you'd say I ignore this is a game, but fine. I can endure this much, let's pretend you didn't say that. For a branch I actually did, but, uhh, I can see why you might arrive at that conclusion on the other two. I should have been clearer here, my bad. Let's run through one of them in depth. Assume the magic in question utilizes oaths or pacts. In such a case the component could be(not necessarily IS) a sacrifice. When the recipient is not specified, the material is a symbolic sacrifice for power. The consciousness of the multiverse(yes, that's canon) accepts your sacrifice as something you own and willingly give up to it to twist itself a bit for you. And since you should not have access to it in the future, the component [I]should [/I]disappear. I stressed 'should' because, thanks to the conservation of matter and energy, it cannot. There is(isn't?) a concept of nonexistence, but you cannot simply make something not a thing - that would require changing the fundamental rules of the plane you are on. Thus the matter enters the void where vestiges reside. The vestigial void isn't even empty space - it's nothing in as a literal sense as humanly understandable. The component still exists, but, lacking free will, it can never come in contact with you ever again, so it might as well doesn't as far as you're concerned. Maybe, but surely not completely. The astral plane is a [I]different plane of existence[/I]. Not every rule of the prime material applies to it. Physicists believe(and we're talking actual, widely accepted experts here, not crazy basement-dwellers), provided there are different universes, they would have different physical rules and properties compared to ours. By writing subjective physics off as unrealistic, you discredit their theories. And even if that wasn't the case, [I]adding [/I]to the rules of physics for the setting's sake and [I]changing [/I]or flat out [I]ignoring [/I]them for the same reason are visibly different. I don't mind if a new splashbook comes along with a new branch of magic that says "X and Y works that way". I think: "Sure, fine with me. I'll just find a logically satisfying explanation and implement it in my system." The book gives you a premise you ha- okay, you don't [I]have [/I]to accept it, but it's easier to do so instead of coming up with something on the fly. Credibility rears it's head, but I don't mind him here. As long as it helps me explain what's below it within clear physical rules. I did the same when I bought my copy of Tome of Magic. Binders were a big challenge(Implementing [I]nonexistence [/I]gave me a massive headache). I didn't so much apply real physics to it as I accepted the physics the creators made up. But I did apply real physics and clear rules to everything they didn't explain to fill the blanks. To surmise, I believe my games still utilize realism more than the other two you mentioned, even if they are fundamentally required. [/QUOTE]
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