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Spells dealing cold damage. effects?
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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6169103" data-attributes="member: 6669384"><p>Before I get into a reply, I'd like to apologize for the snark in my last post. It's a bad habit, one I should break. I'm sorry if it offended.</p><p></p><p>If you're argument cites a minority subset of the game world, it doesn't stand up well as a general position.</p><p></p><p>But I think I should back off from the entire approach of arguing general or even specific cases. That adds heat without light.</p><p></p><p>The reason that I say people shouldn't try to argue physics in a fantasy game is that they are implicitly trying to apply real world principles to situations that can't exist in the real world. The very concept of "magic" says that you're doing something outside of physics. I mean, no matter how you wriggle your fingers, or how hard you rub fleece on a glass rod, you aren't going to open an interdimensional portal to a place where there's enough free electrons bouncing around to channel the giga-watts of power needed to throw lighting a few hundred feet. And that doesn't even begin to address how you channel it so it goes where you want. There's a leap there that simply can't be accounted for in physics.</p><p></p><p>And don't even get me started on spells like <em>Time Stop</em>. Somehow time stops, or you are accelerated to near infinite speed for a short period. If you actually stop time for everyone but yourself, how do you see? Light wouldn't be reaching you, or would be so badly dopplered that you'd be effectively blind anyway. And what happened to your existing motion (recall planetary motion from the Hamster Cannon argument.) The planet stops, but you'd keep going, wouldn't you? And if the spell accelerates you to near infinite speed, how is it you can move normally through the air without generating a shock wave or fireball from your meteoric passage? And <gasp> you're able to start and stop your motion without employing near infinite amounts of energy, nor digging huge gouges in the ground as you struggle for traction.</p><p></p><p>That spell wreaks havoc on relativity, and a few dozen other physical laws. </p><p></p><p>But then, that's why they call it Magic, or if you prefer, "meta-physics". It means "Beyond physics", because it is.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, very few people have a good enough grasp of physics to apply the principles well. The Hamster Cannon argument highlights this, in that the DM in question was trying to apply physics only when it suited him, and ignored the (somewhat questionable) principle when it didn't. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, time spent doing math at the game table is time that tends to sap the energy of the moment from the game. Regardless of how good a mathematician you are, delays like that take away from play. I think you cited 30 seconds to calculate falling damage. That's thirty seconds of "dead air", when everyone is waiting for you and your calculator, possibly in the middle of a battle. Maybe your players are content with that. Most I know wouldn't be.</p><p></p><p>In your argument you fell back on the presence of entities outside our universe as an explanation for some magic. This entire approach presumes that these entities do the magic for the caster, under the terms of an agreement. But in terms of physics, all it really does is push the same question back one stage. It presumes that these entities can direct or reshape matter and energy in ways that physics can't account for. That they can cause a <em>Lightning Bolt</em> to leap towards an ungrounded object hundreds of feet in the air, for example, and ignore the well grounded earth only a few feet away. Electricity doesn't do that. </p><p></p><p>Even in Sci-fi games, it's a problem. The amount of power stored in the typical laser pistol power pack would have to be several times the output of the Niagra Falls generators, yet somehow there's never any cross-arcing between the terminals when it's not in use. How is that possible? The answer is "Suspension of disbelief." on the part of DMs and players, and "We never thought/worried about that" on the part of the authors. Without that, Han Solo would have been firing a six-shooter. (Ever wonder how a Jedi would parry a shotgun blast with his Light Sabre? )</p><p></p><p>Trying to apply real world physics to the game world is a bad fit. It's trying to account for impossible events using rules that describe, and are limited to, the possible. We can make an effort to keep things consistent with the way things work in the real world, but that's about it.</p><p></p><p>Hence my position that we end up settling for credibility. We can go a long way with math and physics, but at the game table it's simply a gesture to support and enforce credibility. It really is the best we're capable of.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 6169103, member: 6669384"] Before I get into a reply, I'd like to apologize for the snark in my last post. It's a bad habit, one I should break. I'm sorry if it offended. If you're argument cites a minority subset of the game world, it doesn't stand up well as a general position. But I think I should back off from the entire approach of arguing general or even specific cases. That adds heat without light. The reason that I say people shouldn't try to argue physics in a fantasy game is that they are implicitly trying to apply real world principles to situations that can't exist in the real world. The very concept of "magic" says that you're doing something outside of physics. I mean, no matter how you wriggle your fingers, or how hard you rub fleece on a glass rod, you aren't going to open an interdimensional portal to a place where there's enough free electrons bouncing around to channel the giga-watts of power needed to throw lighting a few hundred feet. And that doesn't even begin to address how you channel it so it goes where you want. There's a leap there that simply can't be accounted for in physics. And don't even get me started on spells like [I]Time Stop[/I]. Somehow time stops, or you are accelerated to near infinite speed for a short period. If you actually stop time for everyone but yourself, how do you see? Light wouldn't be reaching you, or would be so badly dopplered that you'd be effectively blind anyway. And what happened to your existing motion (recall planetary motion from the Hamster Cannon argument.) The planet stops, but you'd keep going, wouldn't you? And if the spell accelerates you to near infinite speed, how is it you can move normally through the air without generating a shock wave or fireball from your meteoric passage? And <gasp> you're able to start and stop your motion without employing near infinite amounts of energy, nor digging huge gouges in the ground as you struggle for traction. That spell wreaks havoc on relativity, and a few dozen other physical laws. But then, that's why they call it Magic, or if you prefer, "meta-physics". It means "Beyond physics", because it is. Additionally, very few people have a good enough grasp of physics to apply the principles well. The Hamster Cannon argument highlights this, in that the DM in question was trying to apply physics only when it suited him, and ignored the (somewhat questionable) principle when it didn't. Additionally, time spent doing math at the game table is time that tends to sap the energy of the moment from the game. Regardless of how good a mathematician you are, delays like that take away from play. I think you cited 30 seconds to calculate falling damage. That's thirty seconds of "dead air", when everyone is waiting for you and your calculator, possibly in the middle of a battle. Maybe your players are content with that. Most I know wouldn't be. In your argument you fell back on the presence of entities outside our universe as an explanation for some magic. This entire approach presumes that these entities do the magic for the caster, under the terms of an agreement. But in terms of physics, all it really does is push the same question back one stage. It presumes that these entities can direct or reshape matter and energy in ways that physics can't account for. That they can cause a [I]Lightning Bolt[/I] to leap towards an ungrounded object hundreds of feet in the air, for example, and ignore the well grounded earth only a few feet away. Electricity doesn't do that. Even in Sci-fi games, it's a problem. The amount of power stored in the typical laser pistol power pack would have to be several times the output of the Niagra Falls generators, yet somehow there's never any cross-arcing between the terminals when it's not in use. How is that possible? The answer is "Suspension of disbelief." on the part of DMs and players, and "We never thought/worried about that" on the part of the authors. Without that, Han Solo would have been firing a six-shooter. (Ever wonder how a Jedi would parry a shotgun blast with his Light Sabre? ) Trying to apply real world physics to the game world is a bad fit. It's trying to account for impossible events using rules that describe, and are limited to, the possible. We can make an effort to keep things consistent with the way things work in the real world, but that's about it. Hence my position that we end up settling for credibility. We can go a long way with math and physics, but at the game table it's simply a gesture to support and enforce credibility. It really is the best we're capable of. [/QUOTE]
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