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<blockquote data-quote="thuter" data-source="post: 8876005" data-attributes="member: 6975034"><p>...or olfactory or whatever other means of perception they might possess... Whether or not it makes sense is a different question altogether. But my point was mostly the first paragraph: as long as you are not hidden, people know your position. That is the (only) difference between hidden and invisible/heavily obscured.</p><p></p><p>Although as a DM, in conditions where hearing does not apply for reasons mentioned before, and the player is unseen in some way, I would - given that the targets do not have other senses - probably make the stealth check an auto-succeed. Whether they would be considered hidden before the check is up to you, but RAW they wouldn't be. In such cases we are talking about -10 to passive perception. If you run with passive stealth or something like it, then yes: People are hidden by default in such conditions.</p><p></p><p>To answer the question you started the topic with, however: Normally you have to be "<em><strong><u>unseen</u> </strong>(behind something, obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight)" </em>which is only the case with heavily obscured, because you are not "unseen" in lightly obscured. Just like 'behind something' means something that provides total cover, not just a lamp post. The ex-Skulker feat changes this part of the requirement to only require lightly obscured. So still no lamp posts, but "<em>a moderately wooded area, lingering smoke from a sacked town, dim lighting</em>" all will do just fine.</p><p></p><p>I will give you this: The wording could be upgraded to "<em>unseen (behind something that provides total cover, heavily obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight)"</em> and while that would not change the rules the examples would be more clear indeed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="thuter, post: 8876005, member: 6975034"] ...or olfactory or whatever other means of perception they might possess... Whether or not it makes sense is a different question altogether. But my point was mostly the first paragraph: as long as you are not hidden, people know your position. That is the (only) difference between hidden and invisible/heavily obscured. Although as a DM, in conditions where hearing does not apply for reasons mentioned before, and the player is unseen in some way, I would - given that the targets do not have other senses - probably make the stealth check an auto-succeed. Whether they would be considered hidden before the check is up to you, but RAW they wouldn't be. In such cases we are talking about -10 to passive perception. If you run with passive stealth or something like it, then yes: People are hidden by default in such conditions. To answer the question you started the topic with, however: Normally you have to be "[I][B][U]unseen[/U] [/B](behind something, obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight)" [/I]which is only the case with heavily obscured, because you are not "unseen" in lightly obscured. Just like 'behind something' means something that provides total cover, not just a lamp post. The ex-Skulker feat changes this part of the requirement to only require lightly obscured. So still no lamp posts, but "[I]a moderately wooded area, lingering smoke from a sacked town, dim lighting[/I]" all will do just fine. I will give you this: The wording could be upgraded to "[I]unseen (behind something that provides total cover, heavily obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight)"[/I] and while that would not change the rules the examples would be more clear indeed. [/QUOTE]
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