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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 6646300" data-attributes="member: 6777737"><p>Please note: I'm not arguing that this is the way it has to work or that this is the way that it works at my table, I'm just answering the question, "Why do I keep reading how Stealth needs errata or clarifying or is plain broken for some folk?" I'm just saying that this is what I've seen people have problems with.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're correct about the change to heavy obscurement. I missed that change. Not that anybody ever played it the way it was written, but that's a good change.</p><p></p><p></p><p>On Naturally Stealthy:</p><p></p><p>The point is that it's not clear how Naturally Stealthy changes the stealth rules. Does it still need to be reasonable to hide? That's hard to judge, because Naturally Stealthy is usually <em>not reasonable</em>. If we say that there's no relaxing, then the racial feature is basically useless. It will let you hide in a crowd. Honestly, I kind of wish it <em>had</em> been called, "Hide in the Crowd." It's not bad if it's weaker, considering that it competes with Dwarf-style poison resistance, but many tables and players are ruling it as a consistent, reusable form of advantage. The designers haven't told us which way they expected us to rule or just how powerful they expected this ability to be.</p><p></p><p>The question being asked is, "What does Naturally Stealthy actually do?" Giving me your answer to that <em>isn't the reason I'm asking questions</em>. I'm simply pointing out where the rules <em>are</em> amgibuous based on the number of questions I've seen asked.</p><p></p><p>You state in response to my Rogue and Barbarian example that, "it is only possible for the lightfoot to hide repeatedly as you describe if he and his barbarian friend are at least lightly obscured," and later, "if everyone knows where he is then he is not hidden from anyone." Why? Naturally Stealthy says you only need to be obscured by a creature to attempt to hide. The plain English meaning of the ability directly contradicts your two statements. If you have to have light obscurement, too, then exactly what does Naturally Stealthy do? If you still can't hide when people know your location, why can you hide by ducking around a corner or into a closet? See, we're back at the same questions again.</p><p></p><p>And keep in mind, many DMs will first encounter questions like these when a player at their table is a Halfling Rogue whose schtick is using Naturally Stealthy as much as possible.</p><p></p><p>Basically, what you said here is where the questions are coming from:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On Cover vs Obscurement vs Hiding:</p><p></p><p>You note that heavy obscurement makes you an unseen attacker, but <em>that's not the only effect of hiding</em>. Hiding makes you an unseen attacker *and* makes your location unknown. Being in heavy obscurement does not do that. Being <em>invisible</em> does not do that. Being in total cover does not do that (and doesn't make you an unseen attacker, either). All those conditions allow a character to take an action and hide to make their location unknown, but unless they do that, the game assumes location is still known.</p><p></p><p>The point of the example with the Ranger/archer behind total cover isn't to say that he can't take an action to hide. The point isn't to say that what the Rogue is doing is "obviously ridiculous." It's to draw some attention to the inconsistency of total cover and hiding. Because in the real world those two are a lot more consistent than they are in the game.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying anything is broken or bad or wrong. I'm saying it's <em>not obvious and not intuitive</em>. And, while it is consistent, it doesn't feel like it is. It feels like someone is ignoring reality, and that stretches suspension of disbelief. That's why people are stopping to ask questions like, "Is this right? It doesn't seem right."</p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And what if it's the DM who's asking the questions? What if the DM is trying to figure out designer intent of just how powerful stealth is supposed to be and what the designers intended the players to be able to do? If the first rule is, "It works if the DM says it works," then how the heck am I supposed to know what power level steath is designed to have? If the second rule is, "Apply common sense and logic," what happens when the results don't make sense no matter how you rule? There are many abilities in the game which explicitly defy logic. That's the point of those abilities: to be extraordinary (not in the 3e sense of extra-ordinary, but in the plain English sense). When you arrive at an inconsistent result or an unrealistic result, common sense fails, too. Now what? The rules just left you out in the cold.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I can make a ruling and move on. I've got no problem with that. The point is that people are getting confused and feel like the rules are failing them. So they're asking questions about how things <em>should</em> work from the designer's point of view, because their knowledge of reality is no longer accurately modeled by the game. And every interpretation they make or adjustment they adopt has consequences they discover later that they didn't intend. They're being left with a choice of drastically changing their interpretations of some rules (Naturally Stealthy) in order to preserve the logic of rules as a whole (which ideally are as consistent as natural laws in our world). And if they've got characters with those abilities that they're about to reinterpret, well, you've just significantly impacted your game.</p><p></p><p>And I agree that stealth is a nightmare to make rules for, and nobody has ever made a good system for it. However, when you have rules like Naturally Stealthy, Darkvision, and <em>invisibility</em>, as well as tangential rules like obscurement and cover, you <em>need</em> to give the DM some guidance.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise, I think <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460377-Stealth&p=6646228&viewfull=1#post6646228" target="_blank">shidaku's post</a> above summarizes things very well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 6646300, member: 6777737"] Please note: I'm not arguing that this is the way it has to work or that this is the way that it works at my table, I'm just answering the question, "Why do I keep reading how Stealth needs errata or clarifying or is plain broken for some folk?" I'm just saying that this is what I've seen people have problems with. You're correct about the change to heavy obscurement. I missed that change. Not that anybody ever played it the way it was written, but that's a good change. On Naturally Stealthy: The point is that it's not clear how Naturally Stealthy changes the stealth rules. Does it still need to be reasonable to hide? That's hard to judge, because Naturally Stealthy is usually [i]not reasonable[/i]. If we say that there's no relaxing, then the racial feature is basically useless. It will let you hide in a crowd. Honestly, I kind of wish it [i]had[/i] been called, "Hide in the Crowd." It's not bad if it's weaker, considering that it competes with Dwarf-style poison resistance, but many tables and players are ruling it as a consistent, reusable form of advantage. The designers haven't told us which way they expected us to rule or just how powerful they expected this ability to be. The question being asked is, "What does Naturally Stealthy actually do?" Giving me your answer to that [i]isn't the reason I'm asking questions[/i]. I'm simply pointing out where the rules [i]are[/i] amgibuous based on the number of questions I've seen asked. You state in response to my Rogue and Barbarian example that, "it is only possible for the lightfoot to hide repeatedly as you describe if he and his barbarian friend are at least lightly obscured," and later, "if everyone knows where he is then he is not hidden from anyone." Why? Naturally Stealthy says you only need to be obscured by a creature to attempt to hide. The plain English meaning of the ability directly contradicts your two statements. If you have to have light obscurement, too, then exactly what does Naturally Stealthy do? If you still can't hide when people know your location, why can you hide by ducking around a corner or into a closet? See, we're back at the same questions again. And keep in mind, many DMs will first encounter questions like these when a player at their table is a Halfling Rogue whose schtick is using Naturally Stealthy as much as possible. Basically, what you said here is where the questions are coming from: On Cover vs Obscurement vs Hiding: You note that heavy obscurement makes you an unseen attacker, but [i]that's not the only effect of hiding[/i]. Hiding makes you an unseen attacker *and* makes your location unknown. Being in heavy obscurement does not do that. Being [i]invisible[/i] does not do that. Being in total cover does not do that (and doesn't make you an unseen attacker, either). All those conditions allow a character to take an action and hide to make their location unknown, but unless they do that, the game assumes location is still known. The point of the example with the Ranger/archer behind total cover isn't to say that he can't take an action to hide. The point isn't to say that what the Rogue is doing is "obviously ridiculous." It's to draw some attention to the inconsistency of total cover and hiding. Because in the real world those two are a lot more consistent than they are in the game. I'm not saying anything is broken or bad or wrong. I'm saying it's [i]not obvious and not intuitive[/i]. And, while it is consistent, it doesn't feel like it is. It feels like someone is ignoring reality, and that stretches suspension of disbelief. That's why people are stopping to ask questions like, "Is this right? It doesn't seem right." [HR][/HR] And what if it's the DM who's asking the questions? What if the DM is trying to figure out designer intent of just how powerful stealth is supposed to be and what the designers intended the players to be able to do? If the first rule is, "It works if the DM says it works," then how the heck am I supposed to know what power level steath is designed to have? If the second rule is, "Apply common sense and logic," what happens when the results don't make sense no matter how you rule? There are many abilities in the game which explicitly defy logic. That's the point of those abilities: to be extraordinary (not in the 3e sense of extra-ordinary, but in the plain English sense). When you arrive at an inconsistent result or an unrealistic result, common sense fails, too. Now what? The rules just left you out in the cold. Yes, I can make a ruling and move on. I've got no problem with that. The point is that people are getting confused and feel like the rules are failing them. So they're asking questions about how things [i]should[/i] work from the designer's point of view, because their knowledge of reality is no longer accurately modeled by the game. And every interpretation they make or adjustment they adopt has consequences they discover later that they didn't intend. They're being left with a choice of drastically changing their interpretations of some rules (Naturally Stealthy) in order to preserve the logic of rules as a whole (which ideally are as consistent as natural laws in our world). And if they've got characters with those abilities that they're about to reinterpret, well, you've just significantly impacted your game. And I agree that stealth is a nightmare to make rules for, and nobody has ever made a good system for it. However, when you have rules like Naturally Stealthy, Darkvision, and [i]invisibility[/i], as well as tangential rules like obscurement and cover, you [i]need[/i] to give the DM some guidance. Otherwise, I think [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460377-Stealth&p=6646228&viewfull=1#post6646228]shidaku's post[/url] above summarizes things very well. [/QUOTE]
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