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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7070665" data-attributes="member: 6787503"><p>The thing about the dagger being drawn that causes the sleeping creature to wake up is that it's being done as part of an attack, commencing combat. I generally consider combat to make a loud noise that is audible and would awaken any sleeping creatures usually within around 350 feet, but noise level isn't really the instrumental factor in this case. It's that combat has started and, as a participant in the combat, the formerly sleeping creature is now "alert for signs of danger all around". </p><p></p><p>Now, the creature is also surprised because the room is dark or somesuch, giving the assassin player the opportunity to declare efforts to avoid notice. He (auto)succeeds and will attack first, the initiative roll deciding only if the creature is still surprised when the attack is resolved. I suppose one could easily consider the creature to remain asleep until that moment. My only problem with that, however, is that <em>surprised</em> is not <em>asleep</em>. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that for most people, except for the rare moment of lucidity, the experience of waking from sleep is something which happens involuntarily. People, and again I'm generalizing, aren't using sensory information to decide consciously that it's a good time to wake up or not. Your experience may differ, but when most people wake up, I would think they simply find themselves awake without having made any particular effort. At least, that's how it always seems to me when I wake up, even when I've decided beforehand that I would wake up at a particular time.</p><p></p><p>In my games, the players tell me when their characters attempt to go to sleep. They usually succeed unless there's some factor preventing them from so doing. They can also tell me when they plan to wake up which I also usually abide by unless their sleep is somehow interrupted. A period of sleep nearly always ends, however, with me, the DM, informing the players that their characters have awoken and how they find things when they do. I have yet to have a player declare an action for his or her character to "wake up". Nor have I called for a roll when the outcome of such a declaration has been uncertain.</p><p></p><p>Here's a non-exhaustive list of circumstances under which I would rule a sleeping character awakes:</p><p>1. Eight hours, or some other pre-determined interval of time, has elapsed since the character fell asleep.</p><p>2. Someone "uses an action" to awaken the sleeping character.</p><p>3. A loud noise occurs within 2d6 x 50 feet.</p><p>4. The character is in combat.</p><p></p><p>What I would like to ask is, in your games, what action is the sleeping character attempting when you call for a WIS (Perception) check or consult the character's passive WIS (Perception) score? Why does the character wake up as a result of succeeding with that action?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm right here, you know! </p><p></p><p>Hearing is not awareness. Sleeping people can hear everything around them exactly the same as if they had been awake. Sleep does nothing to change how your ears work! It changes your awareness of what you are hearing. In my games, I've identified loud noise within hearing range as something that will bring you into full awareness of your surroundings. YMMV.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't, and I don't. In my games, when you're asleep, you have no chance to notice a stealthy enemy. When your enemy attacks, you are surprised because you hadn't noticed her before. You certainly notice her once she's attacking, however. That's why you're surprised. You were having this nice dream and now all of a sudden you're being attacked. Initiative is rolled to determine not whether you noticed your enemy in your sleep, before the attack, but how quickly you shake off your surprise once the attack has awakened you and whether you'll be able to counterattack before your enemy strikes again.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 7070665, member: 6787503"] The thing about the dagger being drawn that causes the sleeping creature to wake up is that it's being done as part of an attack, commencing combat. I generally consider combat to make a loud noise that is audible and would awaken any sleeping creatures usually within around 350 feet, but noise level isn't really the instrumental factor in this case. It's that combat has started and, as a participant in the combat, the formerly sleeping creature is now "alert for signs of danger all around". Now, the creature is also surprised because the room is dark or somesuch, giving the assassin player the opportunity to declare efforts to avoid notice. He (auto)succeeds and will attack first, the initiative roll deciding only if the creature is still surprised when the attack is resolved. I suppose one could easily consider the creature to remain asleep until that moment. My only problem with that, however, is that [I]surprised[/I] is not [I]asleep[/I]. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that for most people, except for the rare moment of lucidity, the experience of waking from sleep is something which happens involuntarily. People, and again I'm generalizing, aren't using sensory information to decide consciously that it's a good time to wake up or not. Your experience may differ, but when most people wake up, I would think they simply find themselves awake without having made any particular effort. At least, that's how it always seems to me when I wake up, even when I've decided beforehand that I would wake up at a particular time. In my games, the players tell me when their characters attempt to go to sleep. They usually succeed unless there's some factor preventing them from so doing. They can also tell me when they plan to wake up which I also usually abide by unless their sleep is somehow interrupted. A period of sleep nearly always ends, however, with me, the DM, informing the players that their characters have awoken and how they find things when they do. I have yet to have a player declare an action for his or her character to "wake up". Nor have I called for a roll when the outcome of such a declaration has been uncertain. Here's a non-exhaustive list of circumstances under which I would rule a sleeping character awakes: 1. Eight hours, or some other pre-determined interval of time, has elapsed since the character fell asleep. 2. Someone "uses an action" to awaken the sleeping character. 3. A loud noise occurs within 2d6 x 50 feet. 4. The character is in combat. What I would like to ask is, in your games, what action is the sleeping character attempting when you call for a WIS (Perception) check or consult the character's passive WIS (Perception) score? Why does the character wake up as a result of succeeding with that action? I'm right here, you know! Hearing is not awareness. Sleeping people can hear everything around them exactly the same as if they had been awake. Sleep does nothing to change how your ears work! It changes your awareness of what you are hearing. In my games, I've identified loud noise within hearing range as something that will bring you into full awareness of your surroundings. YMMV. It doesn't, and I don't. In my games, when you're asleep, you have no chance to notice a stealthy enemy. When your enemy attacks, you are surprised because you hadn't noticed her before. You certainly notice her once she's attacking, however. That's why you're surprised. You were having this nice dream and now all of a sudden you're being attacked. Initiative is rolled to determine not whether you noticed your enemy in your sleep, before the attack, but how quickly you shake off your surprise once the attack has awakened you and whether you'll be able to counterattack before your enemy strikes again. [/QUOTE]
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