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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7071010" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>Creatures are only 'alert for danger all around' if they are not surprised or after their surprise has worn off. They must be 'aware' that they are in combat and, as both you and the book tells us, sleeping creatures are not 'aware'.</p><p></p><p>You're putting the cart before the horse. Before combat all is quiet because sneaky assassin. Once combat has begun then loud noise may well result, caused by shouting, steel on steel, furniture being knocked over, whatever. <em>But those sounds do not occur <strong>before</strong> the first blow!</em> Those noise cannot awaken a sleeping creature simply because those noises have not occurred yet! You are ruling that those noises awaken the creature before those noises even exist.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In real life people can finish their sleep without any outside stimulus. It's just that the sleep is over. There is no conscious action to wake up (although I've actually deliberately woken myself up out of a bad dream a couple of times! Weird, I know.).</p><p></p><p>However, outside stimulus can and often does wake you up early. A knock on your door, a workman drilling next door, a baby crying. None of those things required a conscious thought from you to 'decide' to wake up; the stimulus just woke you up, like it or not!</p><p></p><p>Those stimuli that wake you have been, without exception, detected by your senses. You have <em>perceived</em> them (with your 'Perception'), even while unconscious in sleep. You might not be 'aware' of the details of a conversation that your sleeping hearing detects, but that talking can be enough to wake you and <em>then</em> you can start to be 'aware' enough to follow that conversation from that point on.</p><p></p><p>We can also be awoken by certain sounds, not based on volume alone. I used to be 'knocked up' by my landlady knocking her broom handle onto the kitchen ceiling which was directly below my bedroom. That sound was not as loud as the constant traffic outside, but I slept through the traffic and always instantly woke when my sleeping ears heard that knock. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You do not need to 'use an action' in order to hear something, or to be woken up by some stimulus. You just roll Perception.</p><p></p><p>It is reasonable to say that sleeping characters are less able to perceive, so go ahead and impose disadvantage. But it cannot be an auto fail nor an auto success unless it would also be for a creature who is already awake.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are also some circumstances where they might or might not be woken, such as 'a quiet noise within the room' or 'an acrid smell of cyanide' or even 'it's quiet....<em>too</em> quiet!' This is what rolling is for! It resolves that uncertainty. It is <strong>why</strong> we invest skill proficiencies into Perception (and Stealth, for the assassins).</p><p></p><p>The idea that there is never any uncertainty is a very strange one, both in real life and in adventure games!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No action required. They just roll. The game is full of things that do not require an action, passive perception being a well-known example. What kind of 'action' is it to make a Dex save to take half damage from a fireball? What kind of 'action' is it to fall down a pit?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly! That's what we've been saying all along!</p><p></p><p>Yet, in spite of that, you rule that sleeping PCs auto fail Perception checks. AND you rule that sleeping creatures auto wake up when they are <em>about</em> to be attacked, even before the noise of combat has occurred!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In my games you have <em>some</em> chance of being awoken by a stealthy enemy. This is resolved by contesting the Stealth of the attacker against the Perception of the sleeper, although the sleeper has disadvantage.</p><p></p><p>It would be unfair and unrealistic to say the sleeper auto fails OR auto succeeds.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7071010, member: 6799649"] Creatures are only 'alert for danger all around' if they are not surprised or after their surprise has worn off. They must be 'aware' that they are in combat and, as both you and the book tells us, sleeping creatures are not 'aware'. You're putting the cart before the horse. Before combat all is quiet because sneaky assassin. Once combat has begun then loud noise may well result, caused by shouting, steel on steel, furniture being knocked over, whatever. [i]But those sounds do not occur [b]before[/b] the first blow![/i] Those noise cannot awaken a sleeping creature simply because those noises have not occurred yet! You are ruling that those noises awaken the creature before those noises even exist. In real life people can finish their sleep without any outside stimulus. It's just that the sleep is over. There is no conscious action to wake up (although I've actually deliberately woken myself up out of a bad dream a couple of times! Weird, I know.). However, outside stimulus can and often does wake you up early. A knock on your door, a workman drilling next door, a baby crying. None of those things required a conscious thought from you to 'decide' to wake up; the stimulus just woke you up, like it or not! Those stimuli that wake you have been, without exception, detected by your senses. You have [i]perceived[/i] them (with your 'Perception'), even while unconscious in sleep. You might not be 'aware' of the details of a conversation that your sleeping hearing detects, but that talking can be enough to wake you and [i]then[/i] you can start to be 'aware' enough to follow that conversation from that point on. We can also be awoken by certain sounds, not based on volume alone. I used to be 'knocked up' by my landlady knocking her broom handle onto the kitchen ceiling which was directly below my bedroom. That sound was not as loud as the constant traffic outside, but I slept through the traffic and always instantly woke when my sleeping ears heard that knock. You do not need to 'use an action' in order to hear something, or to be woken up by some stimulus. You just roll Perception. It is reasonable to say that sleeping characters are less able to perceive, so go ahead and impose disadvantage. But it cannot be an auto fail nor an auto success unless it would also be for a creature who is already awake. There are also some circumstances where they might or might not be woken, such as 'a quiet noise within the room' or 'an acrid smell of cyanide' or even 'it's quiet....[i]too[/i] quiet!' This is what rolling is for! It resolves that uncertainty. It is [b]why[/b] we invest skill proficiencies into Perception (and Stealth, for the assassins). The idea that there is never any uncertainty is a very strange one, both in real life and in adventure games! No action required. They just roll. The game is full of things that do not require an action, passive perception being a well-known example. What kind of 'action' is it to make a Dex save to take half damage from a fireball? What kind of 'action' is it to fall down a pit? Exactly! That's what we've been saying all along! Yet, in spite of that, you rule that sleeping PCs auto fail Perception checks. AND you rule that sleeping creatures auto wake up when they are [i]about[/i] to be attacked, even before the noise of combat has occurred! In my games you have [i]some[/i] chance of being awoken by a stealthy enemy. This is resolved by contesting the Stealth of the attacker against the Perception of the sleeper, although the sleeper has disadvantage. It would be unfair and unrealistic to say the sleeper auto fails OR auto succeeds. [/QUOTE]
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