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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7077777" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>How? What, in world, wakes them? The rattle of Initiative dice being rolled?</p><p></p><p>There must be some perceived stimulous that wakes them. 'The DM deciding to arrange the action using combat rounds and initiative' is a meta-game construct that cannot be known or sensed by the creatures in the world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are objectively wrong on this point.</p><p></p><p>In 5E, 'surprised' is not a mere natural language synonym for 'mildly astonished'. It is a jargon word for a specific rules effect that makes you unable to act or react straight away. It in no way implies or requires the victim to 'know' they are under attack! Sleeping creatures are not immune to surprise, especially on the grounds that they <em>don't</em> know they are being attacked! Nor does the fact that someone is <em>about</em> to attack them cause them to automatically wake up and be aware of it. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Because in this situation the assassin is definitely <strong>not</strong> shouting a battle cry, beating spears on shields or doing anything else noisy. He is specifically and deliberately staying quiet, and <em>you</em> are ruling that the target automatically wakes up <em>before</em> any noise is made, on the frankly ludicrous grounds that 'combat is usually noisy'! </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You are ruling that a meta-game cause of 'DM decides to roll initiative' automatically wakes in-world creatures. It is absurd. I might as well Ready an action for 'when the DM turns to page 86'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You also rule that "Roll Initiative" wakes you up!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't <em>need</em> to make an 'effort' in order for your senses to provide information. You can, but they don't stop working otherwise. You can choose to hold your breath, choose to breath in <em>now</em> and breath out <em>now</em>, but you don't <em>only</em> breath by deliberately choosing to breath.</p><p></p><p>Senses work that way. You can deliberately stop doing other things in order to concentrate on looking for something or hearing something (in game terms using your action to make a Wisdom(perception) check), but you can still see and hear, still perceive things, even without deliberately choosing to. In game terms, the DM says, "You open the door, you see a well-appointed drawing room. Make a Perception check". You don't need to spend an Action to make a Perception check, because your senses may be sharp enough to detect the thug with the club standing behind the door.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Sure. At my ear, the traffic noise was louder than the noise of the broom on the kitchen ceiling. But the broom woke me and the traffic didn't.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>This is surreal. You don't have to 'initiate' hearing something.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I think you understand 'perception' to mean something different than the rest of us. If your senses pick it up, you 'perceive' it. It may, or may not, wake you up.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You still don't have any in-world reason for the sleeper to awake, just an impossible reaction to a purely meta-game decision by the DM to roll Initiative.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, you can be unfair to NPCs too! </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>'Unrealistic' is the idea that sleepers <em>choose</em> to wake up at all!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>By using my wisdom and experience of living life to understand the types of things that might or might not awaken a sleeper, as opposed to things that automatically would (explosion nearby) or would not (an ant breaths in).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, what in-world stimulous wakes them?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7077777, member: 6799649"] How? What, in world, wakes them? The rattle of Initiative dice being rolled? There must be some perceived stimulous that wakes them. 'The DM deciding to arrange the action using combat rounds and initiative' is a meta-game construct that cannot be known or sensed by the creatures in the world. You are objectively wrong on this point. In 5E, 'surprised' is not a mere natural language synonym for 'mildly astonished'. It is a jargon word for a specific rules effect that makes you unable to act or react straight away. It in no way implies or requires the victim to 'know' they are under attack! Sleeping creatures are not immune to surprise, especially on the grounds that they [i]don't[/i] know they are being attacked! Nor does the fact that someone is [i]about[/i] to attack them cause them to automatically wake up and be aware of it. Because in this situation the assassin is definitely [b]not[/b] shouting a battle cry, beating spears on shields or doing anything else noisy. He is specifically and deliberately staying quiet, and [i]you[/i] are ruling that the target automatically wakes up [i]before[/i] any noise is made, on the frankly ludicrous grounds that 'combat is usually noisy'! You are ruling that a meta-game cause of 'DM decides to roll initiative' automatically wakes in-world creatures. It is absurd. I might as well Ready an action for 'when the DM turns to page 86'. You also rule that "Roll Initiative" wakes you up! You don't [i]need[/i] to make an 'effort' in order for your senses to provide information. You can, but they don't stop working otherwise. You can choose to hold your breath, choose to breath in [i]now[/i] and breath out [i]now[/i], but you don't [i]only[/i] breath by deliberately choosing to breath. Senses work that way. You can deliberately stop doing other things in order to concentrate on looking for something or hearing something (in game terms using your action to make a Wisdom(perception) check), but you can still see and hear, still perceive things, even without deliberately choosing to. In game terms, the DM says, "You open the door, you see a well-appointed drawing room. Make a Perception check". You don't need to spend an Action to make a Perception check, because your senses may be sharp enough to detect the thug with the club standing behind the door. Sure. At my ear, the traffic noise was louder than the noise of the broom on the kitchen ceiling. But the broom woke me and the traffic didn't. This is surreal. You don't have to 'initiate' hearing something. I think you understand 'perception' to mean something different than the rest of us. If your senses pick it up, you 'perceive' it. It may, or may not, wake you up. You still don't have any in-world reason for the sleeper to awake, just an impossible reaction to a purely meta-game decision by the DM to roll Initiative. Oh, you can be unfair to NPCs too! 'Unrealistic' is the idea that sleepers [i]choose[/i] to wake up at all! By using my wisdom and experience of living life to understand the types of things that might or might not awaken a sleeper, as opposed to things that automatically would (explosion nearby) or would not (an ant breaths in). Again, what in-world stimulous wakes them? [/QUOTE]
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