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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7081863" data-attributes="member: 6787503"><p>I imagine your players often find themselves wondering why they're rolling initiative and then, if they win, wasting their turn wondering what to do because nothing has happened yet. Is that an accurate assessment of the type of thing that goes on in your games in the event of a surprise attack?</p><p></p><p>When combat begins in my games, I describe some element of the action or movement that triggers combat to let the players know combat is beginning. Usually it's something that's reflected in the system like, "The Orc swings his club at you." But it could just as easily be color entirely of the DM's invention. For example, going back to the situation where a hidden assassin begins combat by attacking with a dagger from melee range, it was discussed that the sound of the dagger being drawn from its sheath might alert the target to the imminent attack, but alternatively it might be that the blade catches a beam of moonlight as the assassin raises it to strike, and it flashes momentarily into the target's eyes. Either one could be said to alert the target to the attack, and both work just as well whether the target is awake or asleep.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not "about to attack them", they are being attacked in the very moment they awaken. </p><p></p><p>Also, if it isn't the attack that surprises them, what in-world stimulus causes them to be surprised? Maybe they're surprised by the DM calling for initiative? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Not "before", but at the same time! And it isn't necessarily noise. It could be a beam of moonlight glinting off the exposed blade and shining in the target's eyes that wakes him up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rubbish! Combat doesn't start because the DM decides to roll initiative. Combat starts because one of the players at the table (including the DM) decides to have their character attack, leading to the in-world event of the character actually making an attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree. Furthermore, if it doesn't require an effort, it shouldn't require an ability check. The information should simply be provided if it's relevant. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't need to "spend an action" to do anything outside of combat. All you need to do is tell the DM if you're engaging your awareness in some other exploration task or it's assumed you're keeping watch for hidden threats. The DM in your example is making such an assumption. Personally, however, I wouldn't ask for a roll and would just check your passive Perception instead. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The constant white noise of the traffic was something you could tune out and sleep through, but if it was actually louder in your room than the thumping noise coming from your floor then it would have drowned it out. Low frequency vibrations carry very well through solid objects like your floor and, depending on how close to the floor you were sleeping, may have carried through your body as well. All in all, this situation is too complicated to be useful for discussion and is in need of determination from the DM as to what factors were responsible for you not being able to remain asleep, as I assume you were trying to do. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>My point exactly! If you don't have to "try" to do something, then it doesn't call for an ability check! That way, a WIS (Perception) check to notice something by hearing resolves whether you notice that thing when you otherwise wouldn't have if you hadn't tried. If you can notice it without trying, then you just do. Why roll?</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I can only speak for myself, but I think it's obvious I'm using "perception" here to mean what it does in the game, that is that aspect of WIS that allows you to notice and detect something that is otherwise hidden. If your senses just "pick it up" involuntarily, then it isn't hidden, and you just notice it. You don't have to make a WIS (Perception) check to hear what anyone present can hear. You just hear it, no check required. </p><p></p><p>Also, I don't see why being good at noticing things would make you a light sleeper. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So what you consider "fair" is that your own preconceived expectation of the currency between skill selection at char gen and agency over the in-game situation is respected at all times. Sorry, but in my games, your ability to min-max is not guaranteed. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Well, what would you call it if someone notices something in their sleep and wakes up as a result? Why does noticing something wake you up?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do the same. I simply prefer to narrow the range of uncertainty down to nil because, as you say, sleeping creatures choosing to wake up seems "unrealistic" and, for me, cheapens the use of die rolls, so I simply inform the players when their characters wake up. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you consider it within the DM's purview to imagine a flash of moonlight that awakens a sleeping creature and invite the players to imagine it too? Or is that somehow overstepping the DM's role?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 7081863, member: 6787503"] I imagine your players often find themselves wondering why they're rolling initiative and then, if they win, wasting their turn wondering what to do because nothing has happened yet. Is that an accurate assessment of the type of thing that goes on in your games in the event of a surprise attack? When combat begins in my games, I describe some element of the action or movement that triggers combat to let the players know combat is beginning. Usually it's something that's reflected in the system like, "The Orc swings his club at you." But it could just as easily be color entirely of the DM's invention. For example, going back to the situation where a hidden assassin begins combat by attacking with a dagger from melee range, it was discussed that the sound of the dagger being drawn from its sheath might alert the target to the imminent attack, but alternatively it might be that the blade catches a beam of moonlight as the assassin raises it to strike, and it flashes momentarily into the target's eyes. Either one could be said to alert the target to the attack, and both work just as well whether the target is awake or asleep. Not "about to attack them", they are being attacked in the very moment they awaken. Also, if it isn't the attack that surprises them, what in-world stimulus causes them to be surprised? Maybe they're surprised by the DM calling for initiative? :) Not "before", but at the same time! And it isn't necessarily noise. It could be a beam of moonlight glinting off the exposed blade and shining in the target's eyes that wakes him up. Rubbish! Combat doesn't start because the DM decides to roll initiative. Combat starts because one of the players at the table (including the DM) decides to have their character attack, leading to the in-world event of the character actually making an attack. I agree. Furthermore, if it doesn't require an effort, it shouldn't require an ability check. The information should simply be provided if it's relevant. You don't need to "spend an action" to do anything outside of combat. All you need to do is tell the DM if you're engaging your awareness in some other exploration task or it's assumed you're keeping watch for hidden threats. The DM in your example is making such an assumption. Personally, however, I wouldn't ask for a roll and would just check your passive Perception instead. I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The constant white noise of the traffic was something you could tune out and sleep through, but if it was actually louder in your room than the thumping noise coming from your floor then it would have drowned it out. Low frequency vibrations carry very well through solid objects like your floor and, depending on how close to the floor you were sleeping, may have carried through your body as well. All in all, this situation is too complicated to be useful for discussion and is in need of determination from the DM as to what factors were responsible for you not being able to remain asleep, as I assume you were trying to do. My point exactly! If you don't have to "try" to do something, then it doesn't call for an ability check! That way, a WIS (Perception) check to notice something by hearing resolves whether you notice that thing when you otherwise wouldn't have if you hadn't tried. If you can notice it without trying, then you just do. Why roll? I can only speak for myself, but I think it's obvious I'm using "perception" here to mean what it does in the game, that is that aspect of WIS that allows you to notice and detect something that is otherwise hidden. If your senses just "pick it up" involuntarily, then it isn't hidden, and you just notice it. You don't have to make a WIS (Perception) check to hear what anyone present can hear. You just hear it, no check required. Also, I don't see why being good at noticing things would make you a light sleeper. So what you consider "fair" is that your own preconceived expectation of the currency between skill selection at char gen and agency over the in-game situation is respected at all times. Sorry, but in my games, your ability to min-max is not guaranteed. Well, what would you call it if someone notices something in their sleep and wakes up as a result? Why does noticing something wake you up? I do the same. I simply prefer to narrow the range of uncertainty down to nil because, as you say, sleeping creatures choosing to wake up seems "unrealistic" and, for me, cheapens the use of die rolls, so I simply inform the players when their characters wake up. Do you consider it within the DM's purview to imagine a flash of moonlight that awakens a sleeping creature and invite the players to imagine it too? Or is that somehow overstepping the DM's role? [/QUOTE]
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