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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7083229" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>Here's how we handle it:-</p><p></p><p>Assassin sneaks into room where the sleeper is in bed (Stealth check versus passive Perception, -5 for disadvantage).</p><p></p><p>Assuming success, the assassin moves to melee range, draws his knife and strikes!</p><p></p><p>This counts as combat(!) so the rules are applied: determine surprise, roll initiative. Both the assassin and the sleeper roll initiative, and we know that the assassin is not surprised.</p><p></p><p>Is the sleeper surprised? Probably; it's a skilled assassin after all, and he's caught his target sleeping.</p><p></p><p>Roll an opposed Stealth/Perception check, with disadvantage on the Perception because of disadvantage for being asleep.</p><p></p><p>Why not passive Perception?</p><p></p><p>"Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again"</p><p></p><p>...which doesn't apply here...</p><p></p><p>"or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster"</p><p></p><p>...because <em>rolling</em> a check may give the game away, but the assassin is going to reveal himself in a nanosecond anyway by way of stabbing the sleeper.</p><p></p><p>Given that the assassin is almost certainly going to be skilled in Stealth, the sleeper (proficient or not), disadvantaged by sleep, is probably going to suffer the game effects of surprise.</p><p></p><p>But, does the sleeper wake up? If so, why?</p><p></p><p>There must be some in-game reason to wake up. Meta-game reasons (we've just rolled initiative) <strong>cannot</strong> be the reason.</p><p></p><p>Don't worry, a legitimate reason is coming toward your heart right about now!</p><p></p><p>Without any sleep being involved, the combat would play out as the attacker striking first because even if the sleeper rolled higher initiative he cannot move or act on his first turn. With the sleep involved, as soon as the attack hits and does damage (almost certainly a crit due to the assassin ability) this is sufficient sensory input to awaken a creature from normal sleep. Although he might be dying.</p><p></p><p>However, the sleeper had a fair chance. He had a roll, it's just that he failed.</p><p></p><p>But he did not <em>automatically</em> fail! He might have succeeded, against the odds. He might have an extraordinarily high Perception modifier, advantage to cancel the disadvantage, even a Weapon of Warning. It would be wrong to dismiss those hard-won advantages by ruling that the sleeper cannot roll, just as it would be wrong to have the sleeper automatically awake and render all of the assassin's training pointless.</p><p></p><p>So what if the sleeper's Perception check beats the assassin's Stealth, as unlikely as that seems?</p><p></p><p>He wakes up! <em>Something</em> woke him, and the DM can narrate the fluff of it how he likes. It may very well be the sound of the knife being drawn, or a shaft of moonlight reflecting from the blade, or the shadow passing over the sleeping eyelids, or the sudden lack of night-time noises caused by the assassin's <em>silence</em> spell, or the scent of the assassin's oiled beard of villainy. The fluff can be whatever sounds reasonable, but the crunch is simply that he woke up because he won the opposed Stealth/Perception check.</p><p></p><p>The game is literally made so that dramatic situations are resolved by rolling dice, modified by the abilities of the creatures involved. It goes against both the game and against the point of playing it to just decide what happens without any rolls; at that point it's just Magic Story Time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7083229, member: 6799649"] Here's how we handle it:- Assassin sneaks into room where the sleeper is in bed (Stealth check versus passive Perception, -5 for disadvantage). Assuming success, the assassin moves to melee range, draws his knife and strikes! This counts as combat(!) so the rules are applied: determine surprise, roll initiative. Both the assassin and the sleeper roll initiative, and we know that the assassin is not surprised. Is the sleeper surprised? Probably; it's a skilled assassin after all, and he's caught his target sleeping. Roll an opposed Stealth/Perception check, with disadvantage on the Perception because of disadvantage for being asleep. Why not passive Perception? "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again" ...which doesn't apply here... "or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster" ...because [i]rolling[/i] a check may give the game away, but the assassin is going to reveal himself in a nanosecond anyway by way of stabbing the sleeper. Given that the assassin is almost certainly going to be skilled in Stealth, the sleeper (proficient or not), disadvantaged by sleep, is probably going to suffer the game effects of surprise. But, does the sleeper wake up? If so, why? There must be some in-game reason to wake up. Meta-game reasons (we've just rolled initiative) [b]cannot[/b] be the reason. Don't worry, a legitimate reason is coming toward your heart right about now! Without any sleep being involved, the combat would play out as the attacker striking first because even if the sleeper rolled higher initiative he cannot move or act on his first turn. With the sleep involved, as soon as the attack hits and does damage (almost certainly a crit due to the assassin ability) this is sufficient sensory input to awaken a creature from normal sleep. Although he might be dying. However, the sleeper had a fair chance. He had a roll, it's just that he failed. But he did not [i]automatically[/i] fail! He might have succeeded, against the odds. He might have an extraordinarily high Perception modifier, advantage to cancel the disadvantage, even a Weapon of Warning. It would be wrong to dismiss those hard-won advantages by ruling that the sleeper cannot roll, just as it would be wrong to have the sleeper automatically awake and render all of the assassin's training pointless. So what if the sleeper's Perception check beats the assassin's Stealth, as unlikely as that seems? He wakes up! [i]Something[/i] woke him, and the DM can narrate the fluff of it how he likes. It may very well be the sound of the knife being drawn, or a shaft of moonlight reflecting from the blade, or the shadow passing over the sleeping eyelids, or the sudden lack of night-time noises caused by the assassin's [i]silence[/i] spell, or the scent of the assassin's oiled beard of villainy. The fluff can be whatever sounds reasonable, but the crunch is simply that he woke up because he won the opposed Stealth/Perception check. The game is literally made so that dramatic situations are resolved by rolling dice, modified by the abilities of the creatures involved. It goes against both the game and against the point of playing it to just decide what happens without any rolls; at that point it's just Magic Story Time. [/QUOTE]
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