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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7100872" data-attributes="member: 6787503"><p>I disagree. You can follow the meaning of a conversation you hear in your sleep, and it can even weave its way into your dreams, but you aren't consciously aware that you're doing so, which to me is the important distinction. When I DM, I don't describe to the players things of which their characters are unaware. I limit myself to that which the PCs perceive consciously. So if your character is awake, I would describe to you the conversation your character overhears. If your character is asleep, however, the conversation would remain unknown to you. If I, as the DM, determine that the conversation wakes you up, then you become aware of the conversation from that point forward. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't need to. It is explained on p. 58 of the Player's Basic Rules that "[a]n ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training <strong>in an effort to overcome a challenge.</strong> The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster <strong>attempts an action</strong> (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure." A sleeping character is not making an effort and is not attempting to notice other creatures. Closing your eyes and falling asleep is a very poor way of keeping watch. If you, as DM, wish to consult a sleeping creature's Perception bonus, or add it to a random roll, to set a DC for a sneaking creature's Stealth check, that's your prerogative, but you might as well pick a number any other way for how much it has to do with what the sleeping creature is doing. It certainly doesn't fit the description of an ability check. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's why I have a short list of events which automatically awaken a sleeping creature. Loud noise is only one of them. Combat is another.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The results are not the same. You're asking for a check that measures a creature's effort to be aware of its surroundings from a creature that isn't aware of its surroundings and isn't trying to be. How do you reconcile those two things in a way that makes sense?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, I'd refer you to the section of the DMG entitled "The Role of Dice" (p. 236). I get that you're a proponent of the style of play called "Rolling with It". The drawback to this playstyle in my view, and the view of the game developers, is that roleplaying suffers when everything is decided by the dice and the choices the players make at the table don't matter. Choose to keep watch for sneaking creatures? Roll a Perception check. Choose to go to sleep? Roll a Perception check anyway! This is a matter of playstyle, and for you to suggest that my preferred playstyle is incorrect is badwrongfun-ing. I certainly don't need a lecture from you on how RPGs work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 7100872, member: 6787503"] I disagree. You can follow the meaning of a conversation you hear in your sleep, and it can even weave its way into your dreams, but you aren't consciously aware that you're doing so, which to me is the important distinction. When I DM, I don't describe to the players things of which their characters are unaware. I limit myself to that which the PCs perceive consciously. So if your character is awake, I would describe to you the conversation your character overhears. If your character is asleep, however, the conversation would remain unknown to you. If I, as the DM, determine that the conversation wakes you up, then you become aware of the conversation from that point forward. It doesn't need to. It is explained on p. 58 of the Player's Basic Rules that "[a]n ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training [B]in an effort to overcome a challenge.[/B] The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster [B]attempts an action[/B] (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure." A sleeping character is not making an effort and is not attempting to notice other creatures. Closing your eyes and falling asleep is a very poor way of keeping watch. If you, as DM, wish to consult a sleeping creature's Perception bonus, or add it to a random roll, to set a DC for a sneaking creature's Stealth check, that's your prerogative, but you might as well pick a number any other way for how much it has to do with what the sleeping creature is doing. It certainly doesn't fit the description of an ability check. That's why I have a short list of events which automatically awaken a sleeping creature. Loud noise is only one of them. Combat is another. The results are not the same. You're asking for a check that measures a creature's effort to be aware of its surroundings from a creature that isn't aware of its surroundings and isn't trying to be. How do you reconcile those two things in a way that makes sense? Again, I'd refer you to the section of the DMG entitled "The Role of Dice" (p. 236). I get that you're a proponent of the style of play called "Rolling with It". The drawback to this playstyle in my view, and the view of the game developers, is that roleplaying suffers when everything is decided by the dice and the choices the players make at the table don't matter. Choose to keep watch for sneaking creatures? Roll a Perception check. Choose to go to sleep? Roll a Perception check anyway! This is a matter of playstyle, and for you to suggest that my preferred playstyle is incorrect is badwrongfun-ing. I certainly don't need a lecture from you on how RPGs work. [/QUOTE]
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