Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Sweet spot of 4e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7264090" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Perhaps I'm odd, but I was never one to rely much at all on supplied material, beyond things like basic stat blocks and such. So, to me, that wasn't an issue. I just see epic as having a slightly different aesthetic and a somewhat different focus. It begs much more for story. You can kinda get away with largely just generating a sequence of related encounters with some plot and do heroic, you don't have to think much about what the character's abilities and actions mean in any sort of story context. The rules are robust and engaging. At times you can get a nice bang out of applying some story considerations, make the bad guy surrender and avoid a slog, introduce new tactical considerations that originate with the plot (different encounter goals for instance). Still, you can burn through the 50-70 encounters of heroic tier pretty easily without a huge amount of need to get too clever. This is a genius aspect of 4e.</p><p></p><p>When you get to paragon, and the PP choices and such, it gets harder. Abilities start to get more open-ended, optimization paths become highly developed and effective, if people go that route, etc. You have to really start to lean more heavily on story, on putting some story value onto the things that are on the character sheet. You can still play some pretty 2D tactical play with relatively undeveloped characters, but it isn't as easy. The encounters will eventually become less engaging, and either less challenging or else require some great lengths of DM cunning and sheer larding on of 'more stuff' to achieve the simple tactical balance of heroic tier. Its better now to focus more and more on story, and to rely on it more to shape the action at the table. I think here is where [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and his techniques begin to show some real solid benefits.</p><p></p><p>Epic is just the extreme of this. At epic the tactical challenge paradigm of heroic tier is virtually dead. Everything has to be clothed in story elements, plot needs to be front and center so that you can build off of what the core game rules give you. The real challenges for the PCs in this area of the game relate to their goals, their sources of power, etc. For example: when you're an epic warlock, you're going to be totally engaged with your relationship with your patron, it can shape almost any tactical choice you make and give it aspects of challenge that don't derive from the combat rules or SC rules. They derive from trying to shape your path and carry out your destiny. This is why PP/ED are such genius ideas, far more so than would appear on the surface in terms of adding more mechanical flexibility. This is why an equivalent at heroic tier was never really needed (themes are OK, they have their own benefits, but from a story-telling perspective they were never vital).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7264090, member: 82106"] Perhaps I'm odd, but I was never one to rely much at all on supplied material, beyond things like basic stat blocks and such. So, to me, that wasn't an issue. I just see epic as having a slightly different aesthetic and a somewhat different focus. It begs much more for story. You can kinda get away with largely just generating a sequence of related encounters with some plot and do heroic, you don't have to think much about what the character's abilities and actions mean in any sort of story context. The rules are robust and engaging. At times you can get a nice bang out of applying some story considerations, make the bad guy surrender and avoid a slog, introduce new tactical considerations that originate with the plot (different encounter goals for instance). Still, you can burn through the 50-70 encounters of heroic tier pretty easily without a huge amount of need to get too clever. This is a genius aspect of 4e. When you get to paragon, and the PP choices and such, it gets harder. Abilities start to get more open-ended, optimization paths become highly developed and effective, if people go that route, etc. You have to really start to lean more heavily on story, on putting some story value onto the things that are on the character sheet. You can still play some pretty 2D tactical play with relatively undeveloped characters, but it isn't as easy. The encounters will eventually become less engaging, and either less challenging or else require some great lengths of DM cunning and sheer larding on of 'more stuff' to achieve the simple tactical balance of heroic tier. Its better now to focus more and more on story, and to rely on it more to shape the action at the table. I think here is where [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and his techniques begin to show some real solid benefits. Epic is just the extreme of this. At epic the tactical challenge paradigm of heroic tier is virtually dead. Everything has to be clothed in story elements, plot needs to be front and center so that you can build off of what the core game rules give you. The real challenges for the PCs in this area of the game relate to their goals, their sources of power, etc. For example: when you're an epic warlock, you're going to be totally engaged with your relationship with your patron, it can shape almost any tactical choice you make and give it aspects of challenge that don't derive from the combat rules or SC rules. They derive from trying to shape your path and carry out your destiny. This is why PP/ED are such genius ideas, far more so than would appear on the surface in terms of adding more mechanical flexibility. This is why an equivalent at heroic tier was never really needed (themes are OK, they have their own benefits, but from a story-telling perspective they were never vital). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Sweet spot of 4e
Top