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Tainted Faith: The Blackguard's Guide
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<blockquote data-quote="MonkLover" data-source="post: 6742659" data-attributes="member: 82105"><p><strong>Originally posted by Aegeri:</strong></p><p></p><p>From everything I've heard, this is the real winner of HoS in terms of classes. I would love to have a PC play one so I can see how they go.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Seakog:</strong></p><p></p><p>From what I have read, they get + cha mod damage on ca, and have an encounter power that adds cha mod damage and cha mod ongoing damage. Plus one of the at wills let's you take cha mod damage to do cha mod damage so a quick non optimized breakdown at level one could look like this.</p><p></p><p>Str 16, Cha 18 </p><p>Greatword</p><p>Weapon Focus Heavy Blades</p><p>+6 to hit</p><p>1d10+3(str)+4(ca)+4(tmp exchange)+1 (weapon focus)= 18.5 avg damage on hit, with relatively easy condition of CA</p><p>1d10 +3(str) +4(ca)+4(tmp exchange)+4(encounter)+4(ongoing)+1(weapon focus).= avg 26.5 damage once per encounter</p><p></p><p>That seems pretty good for a level 1st striker. How does this compares to rangers?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p>I'd definitely switch your STR and CHA around. You'll hit better, the +1 to STR directly offsets one of the CHA damage points you lose, and the extra hitting chance, in the long run, makes up for the other CHA point you lose and then some. I'd also go Superior Weapon Prof (Fullblade) instead of Weapon Focus at the start (1d12, high crit).</p><p></p><p>Also, Dread Smite is more powerful than simple CHA mod, as spoiled here. It's 2+CHA mod, 5 ongoing at 1st level.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by jonathan_sicari:</strong></p><p></p><p>So I'm going to be building 18 (+Racial) Str/14 (+ Racial) Cha toons? Wonder if the get a Wrathful Aspect like utility for Intimidatomancy?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Seakog:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Great news.</p><p></p><p>The reason i went 18 cha was i figured that +8 on average to hit was enough at 1st level. Since you are going to be seeking CA all the time, and you have the hp and ac to take a few chances with OAs to get it, i assume you will play like a rogue and seek it at all times. +8 is hitting on a 6 or 7 vs most 1st level mobs. </p><p></p><p>I thought about fullblade instead of focus, though mathematically they are really both just +1 damage on average. I forgot about the high crit part. A better choice over all.</p><p></p><p>17.5 average dps on an at will, vs 20.5 dps ish for a thief with CA, isn't too made when you consider that you are a hella of a lot more sturdy than the thief.</p><p> </p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p>And if you have an 18 STR you'll hit better still. You can never have too much attack bonus. 18 is the standard start for the attack stat, and the bare minimum acceptable for a Striker.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by robertread3:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>if they have a power MBA and can get on a mount, then we already got striker damage right there, paladins can hit like a truck when they really want to.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Aegeri:</strong></p><p></p><p>What ranking are you going to give Wintertouched/Lasting Frost for the Blackguard Litigation? I would think it would be gold surely, given their striker feature relies on CA and uses cold damage. Could you ask for a better combination?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by robertread3:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ffcc00">gold </span></strong>means <u>YOU HAVE TO TAKE THIS NO EXEPTIONS</u> like your primary statistic while its DEFINATLY a <strong><span style="color: #00ffff">great</span></strong> combo thing its not a "all blackgaurds suck unless this happens" situation </p><p></p><p>the only things i see as <span style="color: #ffcc00"><strong>gold</strong> </span>is your primary statistics, and a few select things like taking the <strong><span style="color: #ffcc00">caviliers mount</span></strong> over a <strong><span style="color: #ff0000">+2 out of combat to party speed</span></strong>. </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by malisteen:</strong></p><p></p><p>The value of a gold rating varries slightly from one writer to another. Some seem to rate it as 'something so good that it's a reason to take the class in and of itself', some just use it as an extra awesome rating. The 'you suck without it' version of gold is, from what I can tell, uncommon. As an example, LDB rates 'Hail of Steel' (I think - the paragon warlord encounter to grant the full party basics) as gold, even though not every other option of that level is red, and even though warlords hardly suck if they don't take that power.</p><p></p><p>It's less about sucking without it, and more about being so far beyond good that you're simply silly not to take it, and given their reliance on combat advantage and their cold element a-will, it certainly seems to me that a blackguard would indeed be silly not to take the winterfrost combo.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Armisael:</strong></p><p></p><p>Malisteen pretty much nailed it. If nobody else beat me to it, I think I was the guy who introduced the gold rating to CharOp. When I did so, I intended on rating the no-contest choices gold, not just the feat taxes. If there's an option that outshines everything else, even <em>other</em> good options, that's probably deserving of gold, like pre-errata Lead The Attack or Force the Battle for a fighter. I think Lit subscribes to the same school of thought, though he's pretty stingy with the gold. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p>I think I'll probably rate Lasting Frost, the feat itself, <span style="color: #ff9900"><strong>gold</strong></span> simply because adding a cheap +5 to potentially both instances of the damage from an awesome E-encounter power that can be spammed 3/encounter (eventually) is just something you don't pass up.</p><p></p><p>I doubt I'll rate the <em>combo </em>gold, though. Wintertouched will probably still be <span style="color: #00ccff"><strong>sky blue</strong></span> because there are other ways for a Blackguard to get constant CA without a Frost Weapon, or even using Dread Smite at all. (Human with Ardent Strike and Deadly Draw/Commanding Vow comes to mind.)</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Scatterbrained:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>It should be noted that you're dipping from both vices here, with fury's CA feature and Domination's at-will. A good trick for a human, but I wouldn't call it non-optimized.</p><p></p><p>Edit - or is the temp hp-to-damage a dom feature rather than a condition of the at-will? I don't remember, but if so you can't have both.</p><p></p><p>Edit 2 - Sorry, I'm wrong... ignore this</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by The_Crimson_Dawn:</strong></p><p></p><p>Just a question and hopefully this does not sound dumb. From what I understand the BG at wills suck. Due to the cavalier write up I would think that their encounter power is based off of using an at will and that they get to choose their dailies. Is there really anything significant lost by going cha 20 and using one of the various ways of getting a cha based at will MBA (such as human-virtuous strike, half-elf-eldritch strike, or teifling with that paladin feat)? All I can think of is that some of the better striker oriented dailies are str based but is there loss so significant that it beats out a 20 cha build that can get those special at wills?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He's not dipping from both vices. Check MC-Drowbane's HoS spoilers thread and the ENWorld thread I linked in my second post here. ALL Blackguards get CHA-mod damage from CA. Domination gets an extra CHA-mod's worth of damage on top if he trades in THPs (as a feature, not as an at-will). Fury simply gets a flat +2 extra damage on the damage he deals with CA, which goes up to +4 if either the Blackguard is bloodied or the enemy he's attacking is bloodied.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It will be a viable build, but as you said, the dailies will be a factor on whether or not you'll want to do this in the end (and if you've checked MC-Drowbane's HoS preview thread, some of those are looking pretty good). So will the Grim Blackguard PP, which at least for the Fury Vice is looking very good.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MonkLover, post: 6742659, member: 82105"] [b]Originally posted by Aegeri:[/b] From everything I've heard, this is the real winner of HoS in terms of classes. I would love to have a PC play one so I can see how they go. [b]Originally posted by Seakog:[/b] From what I have read, they get + cha mod damage on ca, and have an encounter power that adds cha mod damage and cha mod ongoing damage. Plus one of the at wills let's you take cha mod damage to do cha mod damage so a quick non optimized breakdown at level one could look like this. Str 16, Cha 18 Greatword Weapon Focus Heavy Blades +6 to hit 1d10+3(str)+4(ca)+4(tmp exchange)+1 (weapon focus)= 18.5 avg damage on hit, with relatively easy condition of CA 1d10 +3(str) +4(ca)+4(tmp exchange)+4(encounter)+4(ongoing)+1(weapon focus).= avg 26.5 damage once per encounter That seems pretty good for a level 1st striker. How does this compares to rangers? [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] I'd definitely switch your STR and CHA around. You'll hit better, the +1 to STR directly offsets one of the CHA damage points you lose, and the extra hitting chance, in the long run, makes up for the other CHA point you lose and then some. I'd also go Superior Weapon Prof (Fullblade) instead of Weapon Focus at the start (1d12, high crit). Also, Dread Smite is more powerful than simple CHA mod, [URL=/go/thread/view/75882/27412293/Heroes_of_Shadow_in_hand:_Fire_Away.&post_num=96#491819821]as spoiled here[/URL]. It's 2+CHA mod, 5 ongoing at 1st level. [b]Originally posted by jonathan_sicari:[/b] So I'm going to be building 18 (+Racial) Str/14 (+ Racial) Cha toons? Wonder if the get a Wrathful Aspect like utility for Intimidatomancy? [b]Originally posted by Seakog:[/b] Great news. The reason i went 18 cha was i figured that +8 on average to hit was enough at 1st level. Since you are going to be seeking CA all the time, and you have the hp and ac to take a few chances with OAs to get it, i assume you will play like a rogue and seek it at all times. +8 is hitting on a 6 or 7 vs most 1st level mobs. I thought about fullblade instead of focus, though mathematically they are really both just +1 damage on average. I forgot about the high crit part. A better choice over all. 17.5 average dps on an at will, vs 20.5 dps ish for a thief with CA, isn't too made when you consider that you are a hella of a lot more sturdy than the thief. [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] And if you have an 18 STR you'll hit better still. You can never have too much attack bonus. 18 is the standard start for the attack stat, and the bare minimum acceptable for a Striker. [b]Originally posted by robertread3:[/b] if they have a power MBA and can get on a mount, then we already got striker damage right there, paladins can hit like a truck when they really want to. [b]Originally posted by Aegeri:[/b] What ranking are you going to give Wintertouched/Lasting Frost for the Blackguard Litigation? I would think it would be gold surely, given their striker feature relies on CA and uses cold damage. Could you ask for a better combination? [b]Originally posted by robertread3:[/b] [b][COLOR=#ffcc00]gold [/COLOR][/b]means [u]YOU HAVE TO TAKE THIS NO EXEPTIONS[/u] like your primary statistic while its DEFINATLY a [b][COLOR=#00ffff]great[/COLOR][/b] combo thing its not a "all blackgaurds suck unless this happens" situation the only things i see as [COLOR=#ffcc00][b]gold[/b] [/COLOR]is your primary statistics, and a few select things like taking the [b][COLOR=#ffcc00]caviliers mount[/COLOR][/b] over a [b][COLOR=#ff0000]+2 out of combat to party speed[/COLOR][/b]. [b]Originally posted by malisteen:[/b] The value of a gold rating varries slightly from one writer to another. Some seem to rate it as 'something so good that it's a reason to take the class in and of itself', some just use it as an extra awesome rating. The 'you suck without it' version of gold is, from what I can tell, uncommon. As an example, LDB rates 'Hail of Steel' (I think - the paragon warlord encounter to grant the full party basics) as gold, even though not every other option of that level is red, and even though warlords hardly suck if they don't take that power. It's less about sucking without it, and more about being so far beyond good that you're simply silly not to take it, and given their reliance on combat advantage and their cold element a-will, it certainly seems to me that a blackguard would indeed be silly not to take the winterfrost combo. [b]Originally posted by Armisael:[/b] Malisteen pretty much nailed it. If nobody else beat me to it, I think I was the guy who introduced the gold rating to CharOp. When I did so, I intended on rating the no-contest choices gold, not just the feat taxes. If there's an option that outshines everything else, even [i]other[/i] good options, that's probably deserving of gold, like pre-errata Lead The Attack or Force the Battle for a fighter. I think Lit subscribes to the same school of thought, though he's pretty stingy with the gold. :P [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] I think I'll probably rate Lasting Frost, the feat itself, [COLOR=#ff9900][b]gold[/b][/COLOR] simply because adding a cheap +5 to potentially both instances of the damage from an awesome E-encounter power that can be spammed 3/encounter (eventually) is just something you don't pass up. I doubt I'll rate the [i]combo [/i]gold, though. Wintertouched will probably still be [COLOR=#00ccff][b]sky blue[/b][/COLOR] because there are other ways for a Blackguard to get constant CA without a Frost Weapon, or even using Dread Smite at all. (Human with Ardent Strike and Deadly Draw/Commanding Vow comes to mind.) [b]Originally posted by Scatterbrained:[/b] It should be noted that you're dipping from both vices here, with fury's CA feature and Domination's at-will. A good trick for a human, but I wouldn't call it non-optimized. Edit - or is the temp hp-to-damage a dom feature rather than a condition of the at-will? I don't remember, but if so you can't have both. Edit 2 - Sorry, I'm wrong... ignore this [b]Originally posted by The_Crimson_Dawn:[/b] Just a question and hopefully this does not sound dumb. From what I understand the BG at wills suck. Due to the cavalier write up I would think that their encounter power is based off of using an at will and that they get to choose their dailies. Is there really anything significant lost by going cha 20 and using one of the various ways of getting a cha based at will MBA (such as human-virtuous strike, half-elf-eldritch strike, or teifling with that paladin feat)? All I can think of is that some of the better striker oriented dailies are str based but is there loss so significant that it beats out a 20 cha build that can get those special at wills? [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] He's not dipping from both vices. Check MC-Drowbane's HoS spoilers thread and the ENWorld thread I linked in my second post here. ALL Blackguards get CHA-mod damage from CA. Domination gets an extra CHA-mod's worth of damage on top if he trades in THPs (as a feature, not as an at-will). Fury simply gets a flat +2 extra damage on the damage he deals with CA, which goes up to +4 if either the Blackguard is bloodied or the enemy he's attacking is bloodied. [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] It will be a viable build, but as you said, the dailies will be a factor on whether or not you'll want to do this in the end (and if you've checked MC-Drowbane's HoS preview thread, some of those are looking pretty good). So will the Grim Blackguard PP, which at least for the Fury Vice is looking very good. [/QUOTE]
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