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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9002566" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>It is interesting you think the DM needs to be shielded from the social contract. The social contract exists so that people aren't abused or abusing others, so that people are working together. That's the point of it. It is also strange that despite the constant talk you've had of the Players refusing to cooperate, you bring up accusations of railroading and the DM saying "no, I don't care what you want, this is the adventure", which is... well, like I said, a bit strange considering your insistence on the players being at fault. </p><p></p><p>Like, for example, the players in your final paragraph decided on a direction (seemingly as a group) but then you say the GM takes blame for the results of role-playing terrorists and dictators.... but why are the players acting like terrorists and dictators? How did we make this jump? </p><p></p><p></p><p>Also, "who made the character?" </p><p>The Player. No one else made that character. And it is rather odd you take one of the most heroic scenes in super hero media, and present it as a bad thing. Or maybe you didn't make that meme, but it certainly is a poor example of the type of toxic behavior you are attempting to describe. Especially since, "its what my character would do" is almost never something that is a problem for the DM. It is almost always a problem for other players. So, again, how did we get from "no one works together" to "all the players working together against the DM"? </p><p></p><p></p><p>And the reason we are assuming all these things go wrong, is because if only one of them goes wrong... it isn't a big deal. There is no problem in a player making a character before session zero, if they are then willing to engage in discussion and revision. You need to have every step going wrong for anything to actually get to any degree of "problem"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9002566, member: 6801228"] It is interesting you think the DM needs to be shielded from the social contract. The social contract exists so that people aren't abused or abusing others, so that people are working together. That's the point of it. It is also strange that despite the constant talk you've had of the Players refusing to cooperate, you bring up accusations of railroading and the DM saying "no, I don't care what you want, this is the adventure", which is... well, like I said, a bit strange considering your insistence on the players being at fault. Like, for example, the players in your final paragraph decided on a direction (seemingly as a group) but then you say the GM takes blame for the results of role-playing terrorists and dictators.... but why are the players acting like terrorists and dictators? How did we make this jump? Also, "who made the character?" The Player. No one else made that character. And it is rather odd you take one of the most heroic scenes in super hero media, and present it as a bad thing. Or maybe you didn't make that meme, but it certainly is a poor example of the type of toxic behavior you are attempting to describe. Especially since, "its what my character would do" is almost never something that is a problem for the DM. It is almost always a problem for other players. So, again, how did we get from "no one works together" to "all the players working together against the DM"? And the reason we are assuming all these things go wrong, is because if only one of them goes wrong... it isn't a big deal. There is no problem in a player making a character before session zero, if they are then willing to engage in discussion and revision. You need to have every step going wrong for anything to actually get to any degree of "problem" [/QUOTE]
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