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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
talent-based classes (revised)
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<blockquote data-quote="Afrodyte" data-source="post: 1849380" data-attributes="member: 8713"><p>I've been really working with the ideas I had for class revision that I brought up a while back, and after actually sitting down and trying to do something with it, I came to the realization that I had too many talents and talent trees to really be able to work with them. While I liked how customizable it made the classes, I didn't like how repetitive or simply useless some of the talents and trees were. So, I went back to the drawing board and made a few changes.</p><p></p><p>Overall, there are fewer talents granted to all classes. I give five as opposed to seven. I was initially worried that giving so few would make them underpowered compared to their PHB counterparts, but then I realized two things. First, that I was not trying to simply recreate the PHB classes, but offer a variety of ways to be viable throughout 20 levels in a class without relying almost exclusively on magical equipment or using other party members as a crutch. Second, that if I scaled the benefits, the power of each class remained proportional to its level. In the design of the talents themselves, I did as much as I could to keep things familiar, using the abilities from the PHB where appropriate and inventing new ones when necessary. I also did my best to make sure that the talents were distinct in application if not in name (not very good with names).</p><p></p><p>In addition, the intervals at which the talents and bonus feats are gained are different. I tried to make the talents as evenly spaced as possible without doubling up on level-based benefits (such as the feats granted every 3rd level or the bonus to attributes granted every 4 levels). That left quite a few levels to play around with, so I decided to give talents roughly at every 5 levels (not counting 1st level). The other "empty" levels (the ones where you don't get a feat or increase an attribute) were used for feats carefully chosen for each class. The general idea is that bonus feats are meant to enhance your class abilities, but the character feats were meant for developing your character outside of the class role. In other words, it's the reason why warriors, berserkers, and fighters get Toughness as a bonus feat while experts and rogues do not.</p><p></p><p>The warrior classes required the least revision. For the most part I simply got rid of the Extreme Effort talent tree because while it seemed cool, I couldn't envision it getting enough use in a game to make players spend one of the few talents granted to them on it. It made things a little bit bloated. I tightened some of the talents to make sure that they provided something unique and useful, especially the Marksman Talent Tree. The PHB archery feats are very good, and it was hard coming up with something that wasn't done better with those feats. Eventually, I settled on something that was satisfying and didn't favor bow-wielders so much.</p><p></p><p>The expert classes were tweaked too, particularly the generic expert. I trimmed some of the talent trees and created some new ones to reflect the fact that expertise is broad enough to encompass a lot of things, but the most persistent expert types were those focused in the Craft, Knowledge, and Profession skills. I made sure that each of these skill groups had its own talent tree but also included one for more interactive-based characters, one for the jack-of-all-trades, and one for other types of experts that don't necessarily fit into this mold.</p><p></p><p>The spellcaster classes were given the biggest overhaul, mostly in the form of cutting talents and talent trees that replicated spells. As I was looking over it, I realized I was giving them too much for free. I had lost sight of the idea that their talents were supposed to enhance their abilities, not replace them. The cleric received the most revision because I hadn't really developed it fully enough before. I added a new talent tree and changed how rebuking and turning worked so that it was more flavorful.</p><p></p><p>Later on, I may decide to give sample characters and a how-to for creating PHB classes I left out such as the bard, monk, and paladin.</p><p></p><p>If you are interested in what everything looks like, I should be able to post it here tomorrow if not sooner.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Afrodyte, post: 1849380, member: 8713"] I've been really working with the ideas I had for class revision that I brought up a while back, and after actually sitting down and trying to do something with it, I came to the realization that I had too many talents and talent trees to really be able to work with them. While I liked how customizable it made the classes, I didn't like how repetitive or simply useless some of the talents and trees were. So, I went back to the drawing board and made a few changes. Overall, there are fewer talents granted to all classes. I give five as opposed to seven. I was initially worried that giving so few would make them underpowered compared to their PHB counterparts, but then I realized two things. First, that I was not trying to simply recreate the PHB classes, but offer a variety of ways to be viable throughout 20 levels in a class without relying almost exclusively on magical equipment or using other party members as a crutch. Second, that if I scaled the benefits, the power of each class remained proportional to its level. In the design of the talents themselves, I did as much as I could to keep things familiar, using the abilities from the PHB where appropriate and inventing new ones when necessary. I also did my best to make sure that the talents were distinct in application if not in name (not very good with names). In addition, the intervals at which the talents and bonus feats are gained are different. I tried to make the talents as evenly spaced as possible without doubling up on level-based benefits (such as the feats granted every 3rd level or the bonus to attributes granted every 4 levels). That left quite a few levels to play around with, so I decided to give talents roughly at every 5 levels (not counting 1st level). The other "empty" levels (the ones where you don't get a feat or increase an attribute) were used for feats carefully chosen for each class. The general idea is that bonus feats are meant to enhance your class abilities, but the character feats were meant for developing your character outside of the class role. In other words, it's the reason why warriors, berserkers, and fighters get Toughness as a bonus feat while experts and rogues do not. The warrior classes required the least revision. For the most part I simply got rid of the Extreme Effort talent tree because while it seemed cool, I couldn't envision it getting enough use in a game to make players spend one of the few talents granted to them on it. It made things a little bit bloated. I tightened some of the talents to make sure that they provided something unique and useful, especially the Marksman Talent Tree. The PHB archery feats are very good, and it was hard coming up with something that wasn't done better with those feats. Eventually, I settled on something that was satisfying and didn't favor bow-wielders so much. The expert classes were tweaked too, particularly the generic expert. I trimmed some of the talent trees and created some new ones to reflect the fact that expertise is broad enough to encompass a lot of things, but the most persistent expert types were those focused in the Craft, Knowledge, and Profession skills. I made sure that each of these skill groups had its own talent tree but also included one for more interactive-based characters, one for the jack-of-all-trades, and one for other types of experts that don't necessarily fit into this mold. The spellcaster classes were given the biggest overhaul, mostly in the form of cutting talents and talent trees that replicated spells. As I was looking over it, I realized I was giving them too much for free. I had lost sight of the idea that their talents were supposed to enhance their abilities, not replace them. The cleric received the most revision because I hadn't really developed it fully enough before. I added a new talent tree and changed how rebuking and turning worked so that it was more flavorful. Later on, I may decide to give sample characters and a how-to for creating PHB classes I left out such as the bard, monk, and paladin. If you are interested in what everything looks like, I should be able to post it here tomorrow if not sooner. [/QUOTE]
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