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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8213143" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>PF2 is written by someone coming fresh from the harrowing experience of playing a high-level Fighter in PF1 in a party full of spellcasters.</p><p></p><p>"Never again shall a spell be able to win an encounter by itself!" is the motto of PF2 magic.</p><p></p><p>In my experience PF2 and 5E faced the same problem: 3rd edition casters were horribly overpowered.</p><p></p><p>I find that the 5E solution is massively better. While casters were brought much more in line with Fighters, they still get to do pretty awesome stuff, and WotC managed to balance them at every level (at least somewhat).</p><p></p><p>PF2 went for a much less elegant and less successful approach (even though Paizo had 5E to study and learn from!):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spells are horribly weak at low levels, particularly in the area of killing monsters. Playing a damage dealing caster at levels 1-6 is a joke, compared to the damage a martial can cause</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They're strong at levels 10-15 and arguably approaching overpowered at the highest levels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Since weapon attacks are often just better than spells, and monster attacks are better than player attack, it leads to the very unfortunate situation where a monster is generally best served by completely ignoring any spell list it might have, and simply use it's far deadlier special attacks.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Even wizardly monsters are most often better off skipping their magic to instead use their swords or claws, especially when of lower level than the heroes.</p><p></p><p>(I have slowly come to the realization there actually exists people that believe a low level monster is reasonably expected to use it's spells even in the face of Incapacitation. Find that notion utterly preposterous since instead of wasting two actions hoping you roll a 1 or 2 on your save, they can just... eat your face.</p><p></p><p>Meaning I kind of see how Incapacitation was intended to shield player characters... but hoo boy what a flawed concept that is!)</p><p></p><p>I cannot emphasize enough how wonky this feels, especially over a while campaign (we're level 19 now). As a GM I've basically given up on checking out the particulars of the spells detailed, unless the monster is significantly higher level than the heroes AND have been given the actually good spells.</p><p></p><p>In all other cases, if the monster has a breath attack or other area effect it is very likely much better than it's spells. And in any event the monster is likely sporting physical attacks with higher attack and damage values than even the strongest Fighter.</p><p></p><p>All of this because Pathfinder 2 is severely overcompensating for how 3E/PF1 casters ruled the world as gods.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8213143, member: 12731"] PF2 is written by someone coming fresh from the harrowing experience of playing a high-level Fighter in PF1 in a party full of spellcasters. "Never again shall a spell be able to win an encounter by itself!" is the motto of PF2 magic. In my experience PF2 and 5E faced the same problem: 3rd edition casters were horribly overpowered. I find that the 5E solution is massively better. While casters were brought much more in line with Fighters, they still get to do pretty awesome stuff, and WotC managed to balance them at every level (at least somewhat). PF2 went for a much less elegant and less successful approach (even though Paizo had 5E to study and learn from!): [LIST] [*]Spells are horribly weak at low levels, particularly in the area of killing monsters. Playing a damage dealing caster at levels 1-6 is a joke, compared to the damage a martial can cause [*]They're strong at levels 10-15 and arguably approaching overpowered at the highest levels [*]Since weapon attacks are often just better than spells, and monster attacks are better than player attack, it leads to the very unfortunate situation where a monster is generally best served by completely ignoring any spell list it might have, and simply use it's far deadlier special attacks. [/LIST] Even wizardly monsters are most often better off skipping their magic to instead use their swords or claws, especially when of lower level than the heroes. (I have slowly come to the realization there actually exists people that believe a low level monster is reasonably expected to use it's spells even in the face of Incapacitation. Find that notion utterly preposterous since instead of wasting two actions hoping you roll a 1 or 2 on your save, they can just... eat your face. Meaning I kind of see how Incapacitation was intended to shield player characters... but hoo boy what a flawed concept that is!) I cannot emphasize enough how wonky this feels, especially over a while campaign (we're level 19 now). As a GM I've basically given up on checking out the particulars of the spells detailed, unless the monster is significantly higher level than the heroes AND have been given the actually good spells. In all other cases, if the monster has a breath attack or other area effect it is very likely much better than it's spells. And in any event the monster is likely sporting physical attacks with higher attack and damage values than even the strongest Fighter. All of this because Pathfinder 2 is severely overcompensating for how 3E/PF1 casters ruled the world as gods. [/QUOTE]
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