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<blockquote data-quote="kenada" data-source="post: 8214323" data-attributes="member: 70468"><p>Are any of us arguing that it does so out of the box? I certainly <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/tell-me-about-the-abomination-vaults.678535/post-8212536" target="_blank">conceded in my post earlier in this thread that it does not</a>, but it also only requires a few extra considerations to make work. It’s not like exploration in 5e, which not only barely supports it but goes the extra step of including class features that trivialize any substantive exploration mechanics one may try to add (the Alexandrian has started a series on <a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/46020/roleplaying-games/5e-hexcrawl" target="_blank">hex crawls in 5e</a>, and Justin has been complaining about this on Twitter for a while).</p><p></p><p>The issue we’ve been discussing here is a red herring as far as sandbox play goes. You don’t have to do it like old-school D&D. Nothing says it’s just about dungeon crawling, or that you have to be making life and death decisions all the time. That’s almost as peculiar of a definition of “sandbox” as the one Paizo puts forth in the GMG. The thing that defines a sandbox is that the world reacts to what the PCs are doing. Specific outcomes or paths are not prescribed. That means everyone (including the GM) may be surprised at some point how things go.</p><p></p><p>Regarding being able to reason about your situation in combat, we seem to agree mostly, and it’s come down to picking nits. I don’t think PF2 is unique for having creatures with multiple attacks. 5e creatures can have them too, and they did in earlier editions of Pathfinder and D&D too (although 4e may be the odd one out here). No, it wasn’t guaranteed. On the other hand, the usually didn’t suffer from MAP or iterative penalties to the same extent (if at all). Additionally, encounters were not necessarily tuned to the PCs, so the PCs could sometimes be facing overwhelming forces (e.g., 2d4 goblins wandering in a dungeon in B/X).</p><p></p><p>But that doesn’t really matter. I agree that you can’t really make an assessment during combat based just on your current situation because it can change so rapidly (whether due to crits or taking lots of hits from creatures or whatever). I also agree that modern games don’t do enough to make retreat a possibility (though PF2 does provide a <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1210" target="_blank">chase subsystem</a>, which can be used for that). I think that’s why we make such a point of emphasizing techniques to help players make informed decisions during play. If you read the battle reports in the <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/exploration-mode-discussion.675191/" target="_blank">exploration thread</a>, it’s obviously working better than hewing rigidly to the rules and material as written, which seems to result in players who don’t want to play PF2 anymore.</p><p></p><p>And to emphasize, none of those concessions stop you from running a sandbox game. If you’re doing a dungeon, PF2 gives you most of the tools you need. It doesn’t really teach you how to use them, but it’s <a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/43568/roleplaying-games/game-structures-addendum-system-matters" target="_blank">hardly unique in that regard</a>. However, to its credit, PF2 at least has an exploration procedure (albeit with some gaps). No, you can’t run a certain style where characters need to be deathly afraid of dying (though I’d argue that running with core proficiency and not tuning encounters to the PCs should be more than scary enough), but that doesn’t mean you can’t run a sandbox. There’s more to sandboxes than running deadly dungeons.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kenada, post: 8214323, member: 70468"] Are any of us arguing that it does so out of the box? I certainly [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/tell-me-about-the-abomination-vaults.678535/post-8212536']conceded in my post earlier in this thread that it does not[/URL], but it also only requires a few extra considerations to make work. It’s not like exploration in 5e, which not only barely supports it but goes the extra step of including class features that trivialize any substantive exploration mechanics one may try to add (the Alexandrian has started a series on [URL='https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/46020/roleplaying-games/5e-hexcrawl']hex crawls in 5e[/URL], and Justin has been complaining about this on Twitter for a while). The issue we’ve been discussing here is a red herring as far as sandbox play goes. You don’t have to do it like old-school D&D. Nothing says it’s just about dungeon crawling, or that you have to be making life and death decisions all the time. That’s almost as peculiar of a definition of “sandbox” as the one Paizo puts forth in the GMG. The thing that defines a sandbox is that the world reacts to what the PCs are doing. Specific outcomes or paths are not prescribed. That means everyone (including the GM) may be surprised at some point how things go. Regarding being able to reason about your situation in combat, we seem to agree mostly, and it’s come down to picking nits. I don’t think PF2 is unique for having creatures with multiple attacks. 5e creatures can have them too, and they did in earlier editions of Pathfinder and D&D too (although 4e may be the odd one out here). No, it wasn’t guaranteed. On the other hand, the usually didn’t suffer from MAP or iterative penalties to the same extent (if at all). Additionally, encounters were not necessarily tuned to the PCs, so the PCs could sometimes be facing overwhelming forces (e.g., 2d4 goblins wandering in a dungeon in B/X). But that doesn’t really matter. I agree that you can’t really make an assessment during combat based just on your current situation because it can change so rapidly (whether due to crits or taking lots of hits from creatures or whatever). I also agree that modern games don’t do enough to make retreat a possibility (though PF2 does provide a [URL='https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1210']chase subsystem[/URL], which can be used for that). I think that’s why we make such a point of emphasizing techniques to help players make informed decisions during play. If you read the battle reports in the [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/exploration-mode-discussion.675191/']exploration thread[/URL], it’s obviously working better than hewing rigidly to the rules and material as written, which seems to result in players who don’t want to play PF2 anymore. And to emphasize, none of those concessions stop you from running a sandbox game. If you’re doing a dungeon, PF2 gives you most of the tools you need. It doesn’t really teach you how to use them, but it’s [URL='https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/43568/roleplaying-games/game-structures-addendum-system-matters']hardly unique in that regard[/URL]. However, to its credit, PF2 at least has an exploration procedure (albeit with some gaps). No, you can’t run a certain style where characters need to be deathly afraid of dying (though I’d argue that running with core proficiency and not tuning encounters to the PCs should be more than scary enough), but that doesn’t mean you can’t run a sandbox. There’s more to sandboxes than running deadly dungeons. [/QUOTE]
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