Ok, to jump back into the topic. Forgive me if this is a bit confundled, but I’ve been up for over 24 hrs and posting this before heading off to la-la land.
Firstly, I do not argue the Type Pyramid, as it applies to templates. The template pyramid as explained in SS, is more of a clarification than it is a new rule. It clarifies the structure of types and templates. This is to better explain why templates such as Vampire specifically state that they can only be applied to specific types…. Its part of the pyramid and it was specifically designed so that creatures followed a basic power level structure.
However, from the pyramid itself…
Some types, such as undead, cannot change (with a few, rare exceptions).
It specifically says there are exceptions, and that this is not a Gospel Rule. One such example is
resurrection which can bring an undead back to life (likely back to Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid. In the same respect, I think that a class that “evolves” the character into something may be one of these “Trump” exceptions.
I honestly don’t think this “event” was foreseen by the authors when they first wrote PrC’s that granted a type at the end of the progression (Dragon Disciple (dragon), Divine Disciple (outsider), Elemental Savant (elemental), Talontar Blightlord (plant), etc.). It just wasn’t conceived that a character might have a “top tier” type already.
However, in most of these cases, the transformation is either considered to be a natural genetic alteration, or the result of powerful magic or outright divine intervention. In any case they could be “trump” exceptions.
Also there is the question that becomes raised with starting races with type other than humanoid. For example – Aasimar, whom are outsiders. Can they become a Divine Disciple if they are already an outsider? Can they become a Dragon Disciple? Or an Elemental Savant? Or are they banned from these classes? Why would an Aasimar as an outsider be able to gain any benefit from any of these classes if they have no ability to transform from outsider since each class specifically grants gradual steps of transformation? However, the rules system has nothing in place to ban certain types of characters/races/creatures from entering a PrC.
Now if a character were an Aasimar with the Half-Dragon template applied, I would agree that he is still an outsider. However an Aasimar that dedicates 10 levels toward a magical transformation into a dragon type, should become type dragon. Granted I don’t personally see why they would want to (mech-wise), but it makes sense that it is possible.
Does this make sense?
Oh, and if my take that the Divine Intervention granting Plant type is the correct assumption based on the SRD passage and the rules for class abilities, this build would technically be the following by the end of the progression.
Type: Plant (Augmented: Humanoid, Fey, Aberration, Undead)
On another note…
What is your take on how LA works with Gestalt?
Basically I treat LA’s in a gestalt build just as if they were part of a normal build. Thus they replace an equivalent number of class levels in a build. In a core build 1 LA = 1 Class level, so in a gestalt, I see them as taking the same slot as a single class’s contribution. So as an Example, a 1st level gestalt Human Half-Fey Rogue would gain all of the benefits associated a level 1 Rogue as well as the LA+1 template, rather than all of the associated benefits of a 2nd class level. LA do not provide HD, Skills, Saves or BAB, so the gestalt is weakened to only gaining these from its single “side” rather than say gaining the +1 BAB, d10 HD, +2 Fort save and Feat that would be gain by being a 1st level gestalt Human Fighter / Rogue.
I know some people want to slap the penalty of an LA to both “sides” per say of a build, but I see that as doubling the penalty of an LA as you are basically making 1 LA count as 2 class levels lost. This defeats the purpose of a gestalt in the first place, weakening them back down to a Core character.
I hope that’s clear. Again, I apologize if its not, I’m a little fuzzy at this hour.
I think it's interesting the Khaalis's transformations walk up the pyramid (except for the last one) even though he didn't seem to know about it.
Actually it was quite intentional. I was trying to see how many templates I could stack together within the concept for the character. This of course led to the initial topic, the PrC granting a type on top of templates that I am sure were never considered when PrC’s were written to grant types. I didn’t look at the SS “pyramid” but you don’t have to if you just look at the “may be applied to” section of each template.
PS: Kibitz? I figured I was the only one around here that knew some Yiddish…
Nite folks. Look forward to seeing further discussion on this.
PSS: Sorry if I seem a bit mysterious on the character build but it still in flux right now, and some may see the concept as a bit cliche if I reveal the whole concept. I dont want to shade the mechanics discusssion, or steer away frm it with a "build concept" discussion to boot.
