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<blockquote data-quote="El Coro" data-source="post: 5333442" data-attributes="member: 87452"><p>Mike,</p><p></p><p>This is a great idea for quick encounters when you want fighting to mean something without dragging a quick bar brawl out to 2 hours.</p><p></p><p>Using a similar model, here are things I've used to ensure short fights, some of which you mentioned:</p><p></p><p><strong>1) Round Limits:</strong> At the beginning of the fight, you hint to the players that finishing the encounter in X rounds or X minutes (player time only) will result in a bonus, either an easier next encounter, milestone, recover a surge, etc. </p><p></p><p>While not a mechanic change, this encourages the players to speed up their end (which is of course the most time-consuming part).</p><p></p><p><strong>2) Two and Three-Hit Minions:</strong> Using minions that take 2 or 3 hits to kill instead of one is a simple way to speed up combat, and the minions can even deal significant damage as they're still very frail. This eliminates the sluggish end-of-encounter back and forth, where the players have clearly won but must slowly beat down the last couple of enemies.</p><p></p><p>The minions are not difficult to hit, but have a high attack bonus themselves, so are still dangerous and minions only in the sense of how many hits they can take. This whole idea was to avoid a wizard using a daily to deal 50+ damage to everything on the board, which would normally kill all minions. How it normally works is an at-will attack or encounter takes away one hit, while a daily takes away two. </p><p></p><p>Also, players are less likely to use encounters and dailies when the enemies only require a certain number of attacks to kill, which is somewhat related to...</p><p></p><p><strong>3) Only Allowed to Use At-Wills:</strong> This was the one thing that did <em>not </em>work out at all. The players were upset and not being able to use <em>their </em>stuff, which they saw as an a right to use whenever and however they wanted. This came out often if the fight was taking too long or the players were not doing as well as they had hoped. "Why wouldn't I be able to use this?" they'd ask, "we're losing pretty bad, my guy wouldn't hold back if he thought we might lose."</p><p></p><p>I could see players being more accepting of it if they were told up front that it was not a standard fight and a different set of mechanics and rules, but I'm not sure they'd like it. When any kind of combat is involved, players have a hard time not turning to their powers sheet; they specifically picked those powers to excel in some situations, and it makes them angry when you won't allow them to make use of their decisions and resources.</p><p></p><p>But that brings me to a possible solution for your problem:</p><p></p><p><strong>4) A Point System:</strong> I've only used this a couple of times, but it was essentially a minimal fight that the players didn't see as much of a threat. I'd tell the players when combat began that they thought the fight could be accomplished without exhausting themselves by using their more powerful abilities.</p><p></p><p>During the fight, a player is free to use whatever they want, but they incur a penalty (by gaining points) for using healing surges, encounters, daily powers, etc.:</p><p></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1 point - Using any expendable (potion, etc.).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2 points - Using an encounter power.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2 points - Spending a healing surge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4 points - Using a daily power.</li> </ul><p>Most of the enemies are the two, three, and sometimes four-hit minions, so combat won't be difficult. The players are essentially given a choice to stay at 0 or very low points and gain a bonus after the combat (can be anything desirable up to and including action points, surges, bonus XP), or they can use their powers (often when they get into trouble) and gain a bunch of points. </p><p></p><p>When the fight is over, add up all of the points for all players, so say player 1 used a daily, players 2-4 used nothing, and player 5 used a healing surge to stay alive. In total the group has 6 points. For every point over 2, for example, you could reduce the bonus XP by 50%, so at 6 they're actually losing the basic XP from the fight (doesn't go into negatives).</p><p></p><p>I play this off as experience being the ability for players to learn how to apply proper force and combat tactics - overkill is rarely necessary and shows a lack of confidence, skill, and management of strength and resources - if they go over the top in points, then they don't get much (if any) experience points, because they didn't <em>learn </em>anything (which is what I see experience points as representing).</p><p></p><p>Under this system, the players are encouraged to use only at-wills and tactics, but not completely restricted to them. This does away with their frustration of not being allowed to use encounters and daily powers, letting them make the conscious choice of not using them (which is what you wanted all along), because players are clever and will almost always follow the rules if they think they'll get something more out of it (XP in this case).</p><p></p><p>Anyways, it's something that has always worked well for me and seems to accomplish most of the things you wanted (mostly using at-wills, quick fights), while not completely changing the mechanics so as not to confuse or frustrate them in combat.</p><p></p><p>Let me know what you think, either through here or <a href="http://MAILTO:corwin[MENTION=55431]Ready[/MENTION]anaction.com" target="_blank">email</a>. I can give several examples of fights with the point system to show how it balances based on the length and difficulty.</p><p></p><p>Good post though, enjoyed reading it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="El Coro, post: 5333442, member: 87452"] Mike, This is a great idea for quick encounters when you want fighting to mean something without dragging a quick bar brawl out to 2 hours. Using a similar model, here are things I've used to ensure short fights, some of which you mentioned: [B]1) Round Limits:[/B] At the beginning of the fight, you hint to the players that finishing the encounter in X rounds or X minutes (player time only) will result in a bonus, either an easier next encounter, milestone, recover a surge, etc. While not a mechanic change, this encourages the players to speed up their end (which is of course the most time-consuming part). [B]2) Two and Three-Hit Minions:[/B] Using minions that take 2 or 3 hits to kill instead of one is a simple way to speed up combat, and the minions can even deal significant damage as they're still very frail. This eliminates the sluggish end-of-encounter back and forth, where the players have clearly won but must slowly beat down the last couple of enemies. The minions are not difficult to hit, but have a high attack bonus themselves, so are still dangerous and minions only in the sense of how many hits they can take. This whole idea was to avoid a wizard using a daily to deal 50+ damage to everything on the board, which would normally kill all minions. How it normally works is an at-will attack or encounter takes away one hit, while a daily takes away two. Also, players are less likely to use encounters and dailies when the enemies only require a certain number of attacks to kill, which is somewhat related to... [B]3) Only Allowed to Use At-Wills:[/B] This was the one thing that did [I]not [/I]work out at all. The players were upset and not being able to use [I]their [/I]stuff, which they saw as an a right to use whenever and however they wanted. This came out often if the fight was taking too long or the players were not doing as well as they had hoped. "Why wouldn't I be able to use this?" they'd ask, "we're losing pretty bad, my guy wouldn't hold back if he thought we might lose." I could see players being more accepting of it if they were told up front that it was not a standard fight and a different set of mechanics and rules, but I'm not sure they'd like it. When any kind of combat is involved, players have a hard time not turning to their powers sheet; they specifically picked those powers to excel in some situations, and it makes them angry when you won't allow them to make use of their decisions and resources. But that brings me to a possible solution for your problem: [B]4) A Point System:[/B] I've only used this a couple of times, but it was essentially a minimal fight that the players didn't see as much of a threat. I'd tell the players when combat began that they thought the fight could be accomplished without exhausting themselves by using their more powerful abilities. During the fight, a player is free to use whatever they want, but they incur a penalty (by gaining points) for using healing surges, encounters, daily powers, etc.: [LIST] [*]1 point - Using any expendable (potion, etc.). [*]2 points - Using an encounter power. [*]2 points - Spending a healing surge. [*]4 points - Using a daily power. [/LIST] Most of the enemies are the two, three, and sometimes four-hit minions, so combat won't be difficult. The players are essentially given a choice to stay at 0 or very low points and gain a bonus after the combat (can be anything desirable up to and including action points, surges, bonus XP), or they can use their powers (often when they get into trouble) and gain a bunch of points. When the fight is over, add up all of the points for all players, so say player 1 used a daily, players 2-4 used nothing, and player 5 used a healing surge to stay alive. In total the group has 6 points. For every point over 2, for example, you could reduce the bonus XP by 50%, so at 6 they're actually losing the basic XP from the fight (doesn't go into negatives). I play this off as experience being the ability for players to learn how to apply proper force and combat tactics - overkill is rarely necessary and shows a lack of confidence, skill, and management of strength and resources - if they go over the top in points, then they don't get much (if any) experience points, because they didn't [I]learn [/I]anything (which is what I see experience points as representing). Under this system, the players are encouraged to use only at-wills and tactics, but not completely restricted to them. This does away with their frustration of not being allowed to use encounters and daily powers, letting them make the conscious choice of not using them (which is what you wanted all along), because players are clever and will almost always follow the rules if they think they'll get something more out of it (XP in this case). Anyways, it's something that has always worked well for me and seems to accomplish most of the things you wanted (mostly using at-wills, quick fights), while not completely changing the mechanics so as not to confuse or frustrate them in combat. Let me know what you think, either through here or [URL="MAILTO:corwin[MENTION=55431]Ready[/MENTION]anaction.com"]email[/URL]. I can give several examples of fights with the point system to show how it balances based on the length and difficulty. Good post though, enjoyed reading it. [/QUOTE]
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