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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The 4E We Didnt Get.
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9230219" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I never even made it to 3.5e. I forked into what I think of as 3.25e and felt my own fork was superior to what 3.5e did so aside from a few revised spells I stuck with 3e. </p><p></p><p>Key changes:</p><p></p><p>a) Spell level and Monster HD no longer add bonuses to the DC of saves. This means saving throws are more like 1e where the higher level you got the more likely you were to pass a saving throw. </p><p>b) Clerics get one fewer spell slot per spell level at most levels, taking longer to reach their maximum and only able to cast a domain spell when they first have the ability to cast a spell. They also have a list of known spells and do not automatically have access to every divine spell.</p><p>c) Druids went away as a separate class and are a build of a more configurable and probably less powerful "Shaman" class.</p><p>d) Paladin went away as a separate class and are a build of a more configurable "Champion" class.</p><p>e) PrCs were eliminated from the game and a number of changes were made to ensure there was no mechanical reason for them.</p><p>f) There were some minor restrictions on dump stating and multiclassing put in place via mechanics similar to 1e AD&D's minimum attribute requirements.</p><p>g) Size class grants bonus hit points separate from CON or HD. This makes low level stuff a lot less squishy which I find generally a good trade. It also eliminated problems 3e had with things like Undead not having CON and made the rules for constructs and oozes more elegant. </p><p>h) Lots of spells received minor nerfs. </p><p>i) Most classes received minor changes.</p><p>j) Divine wands were removed. Some major revisions were made to the cost of making "always on" or at will magic items.</p><p>k) As with Pathfinder, I had added additional combat maneuvers.</p><p></p><p>Numbers bloat is still a problem, but it's mostly a problem at levels above where I normally play, so it hasn't been a problem. There is a downside to reducing number bloat and you see it in 5e, and that is that if you don't reward players for doing things then they have no need to do things. Fifth edition's advantage system means that as soon as you can achieve some advantage by the easiest means possible, there is no need to work for more advantage and that is a big trade off to me. Fourth edition in that sense was numbers bloaty on purpose because tactically maneuvering for advantages was what that game wanted you to be always doing so I didn't see a huge advantage there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9230219, member: 4937"] I never even made it to 3.5e. I forked into what I think of as 3.25e and felt my own fork was superior to what 3.5e did so aside from a few revised spells I stuck with 3e. Key changes: a) Spell level and Monster HD no longer add bonuses to the DC of saves. This means saving throws are more like 1e where the higher level you got the more likely you were to pass a saving throw. b) Clerics get one fewer spell slot per spell level at most levels, taking longer to reach their maximum and only able to cast a domain spell when they first have the ability to cast a spell. They also have a list of known spells and do not automatically have access to every divine spell. c) Druids went away as a separate class and are a build of a more configurable and probably less powerful "Shaman" class. d) Paladin went away as a separate class and are a build of a more configurable "Champion" class. e) PrCs were eliminated from the game and a number of changes were made to ensure there was no mechanical reason for them. f) There were some minor restrictions on dump stating and multiclassing put in place via mechanics similar to 1e AD&D's minimum attribute requirements. g) Size class grants bonus hit points separate from CON or HD. This makes low level stuff a lot less squishy which I find generally a good trade. It also eliminated problems 3e had with things like Undead not having CON and made the rules for constructs and oozes more elegant. h) Lots of spells received minor nerfs. i) Most classes received minor changes. j) Divine wands were removed. Some major revisions were made to the cost of making "always on" or at will magic items. k) As with Pathfinder, I had added additional combat maneuvers. Numbers bloat is still a problem, but it's mostly a problem at levels above where I normally play, so it hasn't been a problem. There is a downside to reducing number bloat and you see it in 5e, and that is that if you don't reward players for doing things then they have no need to do things. Fifth edition's advantage system means that as soon as you can achieve some advantage by the easiest means possible, there is no need to work for more advantage and that is a big trade off to me. Fourth edition in that sense was numbers bloaty on purpose because tactically maneuvering for advantages was what that game wanted you to be always doing so I didn't see a huge advantage there. [/QUOTE]
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