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The abandoned core monsters of D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="ilgatto" data-source="post: 9292781" data-attributes="member: 86051"><p>Fair enough. I suppose it’s the whole “to giant or not to giant” aspect of monsters throughout the history of OD&D/BD&D/AD&D, as well as the rules watering down as the game developed, that are to blame here.</p><p>Anyway, I suppose the spitting cobra being in 4E sort of makes the whole point moot anyway. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmm… Also, the AD&D Giant Honeybee is a lot larger than the BD&D Giant (Killer) Bee, which I suppose sort of explains the difference in Hit Dice. And then there’s the difference in Intelligence, which would make the killer bee an “animal” and the giant honeybee a “monster” in line with (later) distinctions between the two – as in, badger & giant badger vs, say, eagle & giant eagle. Agreed, the giant eagle is obviously based on Tolkien, like the giant beaver and giant owl are based on their own literary sources, but still.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not to argue, but now I also got curious. Looking at <em>Ye Historie of Ants in D&D Up To AD&D</em>, we get the following:</p><p></p><p>D&D2 M&T 1974</p><p>LARGE INSECTS OR ANIMALS: This category includes giant ants and prehistoric monsters. Armor Class can be anything from 8 to 2. Hit Dice should range from 2 to anywhere near 20, let us say, for a Tyrannasaurus [sic] Rex. Damage caused by hits should range between 2-4 dice (2-24 points).</p><p></p><p>D&D3 UWA 1974</p><p>Giant ants mentioned as “3rd-level” monsters.</p><p>Ants mentioned as “basic animals” for Wilderness Wandering Monsters, with animals “generally [being] of the giant variety (...)”.</p><p></p><p>D&D-GH 1975</p><p>(Giant) Ants mentioned as “2nd-level” monsters in “MONSTER LEVEL TABLES: (Change)”.</p><p></p><p>MTA2 1977 </p><p>Giant Driver Ants (1-4) HP: 20 16 15 12; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None. </p><p>“THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD? Or even 5d6 HD?</p><p></p><p>MTA3 1978 </p><p>Driver Ants (10-50) HP: 10x18 10x16 10x20 10x17 10x19; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None.</p><p>“THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD?</p><p>Driver Ants (10-100) HP: 10x28 10x25 10x24 10x22 10x21 10x19 10x18 10x16 10x13 10x12; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None.</p><p>“THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD?</p><p></p><p>MTA4 1980 </p><p>So this has both versions, of course. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite11" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes :rolleyes:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /></p><p></p><p>B/X 1981</p><p>Driver Ant (#AP 2-8 (4-24); AC 3; MV 180'; HD 4; #AT 1; D 2-12; STS F2; SZ 6' long).</p><p>Text calls them “giant black ants”; when hungry devour anything in their path.</p><p></p><p>BECMI 1983</p><p>Giant Ant = more or less as B/X driver ant.</p><p></p><p>MM1 1977</p><p>Giant Ant (#AP 1-100 or more; AC 3; MV 18"; HD 2; THAC0 16; #AT 1; D 1-6; SZ 2' long); workers, warriors, queen.</p><p></p><p>MC2 1989</p><p>Giant Ant more or less as MM1.</p><p>But this has “Swarm”, which has army ants (red or gold), which could cover driver ants?</p><p></p><p>MCC1 1993</p><p>(Insect) Giant Ant more or less as MC1 but without the MC2 blurb.</p><p></p><p>If anything, the giant ants seem to have become a lot smaller over the years. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>So, on second look, there’s actually nothing in the various BD&D Driver Ant/Giant Ant write-ups that suggests that the creatures are “actual” driver ants or army ants. Indeed, BECMI calling them “giant black ants” seems to suggest quite the contrary.</p><p>But, like the giant bees, I’d say that…, um…, size matters – and therefore Hit Dice and damage. If not driver ants, then I’d call the BD&D ants “Huge Ants” rather than “Giant Ants” <em>(e.g.,</em> also see the [non-core] Giant Black Ants and Giant Red Ants in <em>Fiend Factory. And Some Came Riding</em> in <em><u>White Dwarf 43</u>).</em></p><p>Perhaps I should also say that I tend to see a monster as a monster, mostly because many monsters trace back to the days of yore and there really wasn’t such a thing as “editions” back then.</p><p>So this is all IMHO and all that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair point. But…, um…, wouldn’t that sort of make the BD&D Cave Locust/Giant Locust the same monster as the AD&D (Giant) Cave Cricket? [ducks for cover]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />. So true.</p><p></p><p>By the by, I have the nagging feeling that I read somewhere that the original shadow is actually based on some monster from pulp fantasy literature rather than from Greek mythology as Tom Moldvay suggests in <em><u>Dragon 162</u></em>. Drat! There goes my weekend.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ilgatto, post: 9292781, member: 86051"] Fair enough. I suppose it’s the whole “to giant or not to giant” aspect of monsters throughout the history of OD&D/BD&D/AD&D, as well as the rules watering down as the game developed, that are to blame here. Anyway, I suppose the spitting cobra being in 4E sort of makes the whole point moot anyway. :) True that. Hmm… Also, the AD&D Giant Honeybee is a lot larger than the BD&D Giant (Killer) Bee, which I suppose sort of explains the difference in Hit Dice. And then there’s the difference in Intelligence, which would make the killer bee an “animal” and the giant honeybee a “monster” in line with (later) distinctions between the two – as in, badger & giant badger vs, say, eagle & giant eagle. Agreed, the giant eagle is obviously based on Tolkien, like the giant beaver and giant owl are based on their own literary sources, but still. Not to argue, but now I also got curious. Looking at [I]Ye Historie of Ants in D&D Up To AD&D[/I], we get the following: D&D2 M&T 1974 LARGE INSECTS OR ANIMALS: This category includes giant ants and prehistoric monsters. Armor Class can be anything from 8 to 2. Hit Dice should range from 2 to anywhere near 20, let us say, for a Tyrannasaurus [sic] Rex. Damage caused by hits should range between 2-4 dice (2-24 points). D&D3 UWA 1974 Giant ants mentioned as “3rd-level” monsters. Ants mentioned as “basic animals” for Wilderness Wandering Monsters, with animals “generally [being] of the giant variety (...)”. D&D-GH 1975 (Giant) Ants mentioned as “2nd-level” monsters in “MONSTER LEVEL TABLES: (Change)”. MTA2 1977 Giant Driver Ants (1-4) HP: 20 16 15 12; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None. “THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD? Or even 5d6 HD? MTA3 1978 Driver Ants (10-50) HP: 10x18 10x16 10x20 10x17 10x19; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None. “THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD? Driver Ants (10-100) HP: 10x28 10x25 10x24 10x22 10x21 10x19 10x18 10x16 10x13 10x12; #AT: 1; THAC9: 7; AC: 3; ST/F 2; SA: None. “THAC9” and hp sort of suggest 4d8-ish HD? MTA4 1980 So this has both versions, of course. :rolleyes: B/X 1981 Driver Ant (#AP 2-8 (4-24); AC 3; MV 180'; HD 4; #AT 1; D 2-12; STS F2; SZ 6' long). Text calls them “giant black ants”; when hungry devour anything in their path. BECMI 1983 Giant Ant = more or less as B/X driver ant. MM1 1977 Giant Ant (#AP 1-100 or more; AC 3; MV 18"; HD 2; THAC0 16; #AT 1; D 1-6; SZ 2' long); workers, warriors, queen. MC2 1989 Giant Ant more or less as MM1. But this has “Swarm”, which has army ants (red or gold), which could cover driver ants? MCC1 1993 (Insect) Giant Ant more or less as MC1 but without the MC2 blurb. If anything, the giant ants seem to have become a lot smaller over the years. :) So, on second look, there’s actually nothing in the various BD&D Driver Ant/Giant Ant write-ups that suggests that the creatures are “actual” driver ants or army ants. Indeed, BECMI calling them “giant black ants” seems to suggest quite the contrary. But, like the giant bees, I’d say that…, um…, size matters – and therefore Hit Dice and damage. If not driver ants, then I’d call the BD&D ants “Huge Ants” rather than “Giant Ants” [I](e.g.,[/I] also see the [non-core] Giant Black Ants and Giant Red Ants in [I]Fiend Factory. And Some Came Riding[/I] in [I][U]White Dwarf 43[/U]).[/I] Perhaps I should also say that I tend to see a monster as a monster, mostly because many monsters trace back to the days of yore and there really wasn’t such a thing as “editions” back then. So this is all IMHO and all that. Fair point. But…, um…, wouldn’t that sort of make the BD&D Cave Locust/Giant Locust the same monster as the AD&D (Giant) Cave Cricket? [ducks for cover] :). So true. By the by, I have the nagging feeling that I read somewhere that the original shadow is actually based on some monster from pulp fantasy literature rather than from Greek mythology as Tom Moldvay suggests in [I][U]Dragon 162[/U][/I]. Drat! There goes my weekend. [/QUOTE]
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