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The Art of Controlling: Controlling 101 (by alien270)
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<blockquote data-quote="LightWarden" data-source="post: 6744902" data-attributes="member: 6803540"><p><strong>Miscellaneous Posting P2</strong></p><p>[sblock]<strong>Originally posted by akhorahil:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is incorrect. Helpless means that you can be Coup de Graced, that's all. Which means that the target fights on, except that it's really, <em>really</em> vulnerable.</p><p></p><p>With Sleep, you're rid of the monster in the meanwhile and can CdG to your heart's content later on.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by ixbn:</strong></p><p></p><p>Be it as that may (I would rule differently) the rest of the counterpoints from me and my fellow poster still stand unquestionable and its not only immobilized after a miss for FoD, but after the save its still slowed, SE.</p><p></p><p>You may still prefer sleep, but I happen to be of different opinion.</p><p>Sleep is pretty useless if you do not hit, or if the target makes the first save.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by ixbn:</strong></p><p></p><p>Sorry I forgot, being helpless also grants CA - even if you go for RAW only!</p><p></p><p>So its not only autocrit but easier to hit too.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that is why it's an area effect. The strong point of sleep is that it does <em>so</em> much more on a hit + failed save, that the fact that it does a bit less on a miss or succesful save isn't really relevant. Add to that the fact that sleep is available eight levels earlier, and subject to Salve of Power as well as the cheapest Mnemo Staff.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Being slowed is only relevant if the monster has neither ranged attacks nor support powers, and is not in charge range from the party. As conditions go, it's easily the weakest.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That applies to both spells, of course.</p><p></p><p>Although yeah, WOTC should rule on whether they meant being "helpless" to also disallow taking actions. If it is, then FOD becomes better. For illusionists it is already better simply by virtue of being an illusion power.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by akhorahil:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know, I think it beats Deafened. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>I hadn't heard of that condition <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by ixbn:</strong></p><p></p><p>I think you missunderstood.</p><p></p><p>O.K. lets try to sort it out:</p><p>You are right about sleep being a first level power and therefore being subject to easy ways of geting it back.</p><p></p><p>Now lets set that aside for a moment.</p><p>Lets also set aside, that a Gnome Ilusionist has a higher probability of hitting with an Ilusion Power investing in a simple feat. Lets also set aside that we may face solos, which have a bonus to saves.</p><p></p><p>Lets assume the probability of hitting is about 50%. Let us further assume that we have a not optimised lockdown wizard (taking into account, that this is not the only viable path), but he has a wisdom bonus of +3 at lvl 9 and an Orb of imposition +2. For every target we get the following possibilities:</p><p></p><p>Sleep: </p><p>50% hit, condition slowed</p><p>after targets turn:</p><p>successful save 30%, no condition</p><p>failed save 70%, condition unconscious + slowed (SE invidually)</p><p></p><p>50% miss, condition slowed</p><p>after targets turn:</p><p>successful save 30%, no condition</p><p>failed save 70%, condition slowed (SE)</p><p></p><p>FoD:</p><p>50% hit, condition immobilized</p><p>after targets turn:</p><p>successful save 30%, aftereffect slowed (SE)</p><p>failed save 70%, condition helpless + immobilized (SE individually)</p><p></p><p>50% miss, condition immobilized</p><p>after targets turn:</p><p>successful save 30%, aftereffect Slowed (SE)</p><p>failed save 70 %, condition immobilized (SE)</p><p></p><p>So for the first round for any given target sleep is inferior in 100% of the cases.</p><p></p><p>For the second round for any given target sleep is superior in </p><p>0.5 *0.7*100% = 35% of all cases.</p><p></p><p>For the third round it is a little more complex, depending on the following:</p><p>Is one of the failed save made this time and if so, which of the saves is made.</p><p>Or are even both saves successful.</p><p>However the over all probability does not get better for sleep, so I will cut it here.</p><p></p><p>I agree, that sleep is a very good spell, <strong><u>IF</u></strong> it works out well. Especially considering it to be first level.</p><p></p><p>Else you have practically wasted a turn, because slowed is weak and in about 65 % of the cases that is the best you get in the second round (could even be wose and you get nothing in 30% of all cases).</p><p></p><p>I personally prefer the much more reliable spell but YMMV.</p><p></p><p>There is only one thing i would like to mention: please refrain from cutting things I have said presenting them totally out of context and therefore giving readers a totally wrong picture of my argument. </p><p>I, personally consider this to be a matter of character and fairness. </p><p></p><p>But I am quit sure this was not done on purpose and therfore will not happen again. Thank you for your fairness in advance!</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by alien270:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure if you intended to imply that Sleep being an AoE made it superior (among other reasons) to FoD, but I just thought I'd point out that FoD is also an AoE. </p><p></p><p>In terms of initial effects, FoD is unequivocally superior because immobilized (save ends) > slowed (save ends). Both apply their initial effects on a hit or miss, so no advantage either way in that sense. </p><p></p><p>Oddly though, on the first failed save Sleep > FoD because unconscious is just flat out superior to helpless. Moreover, I would argue that the magnitude of unconscious's superiority over helpless is greater than the magnitude of the superiority of immobilized over slowed (hope that made sense, I wasn't sure how to best word it). <em><strong>Any</strong></em> unconscious creature is both subject to coup de graces and cannot retaliate. Helpless creatures are subject to coup de graces and can retaliate (both conditions grant CA, so they're even there). For immobilized, only melee enemies not adjacent to targets are hindered (granted, that's probably all you would use the power one, but it does make it more situational) and once again only melee enemies are really hindered by slowed. </p><p></p><p>FoD does come with an aftereffect, but unfortunately it's slowed (same as the main effect of Sleep). </p><p></p><p>So what exactly does this mean in terms of which power is superior? It really depends on the build. Sleep is superior if the target fails its first save, and so for a build that utilizes a lot of save penalties Sleep is overall the better choice (and accessible at level 1). Also, in terms of which power is better at lockdown Sleep once again comes out on top (for Orbizards at least) because it's less situational. You can lock down anyone by making them unconscious. Only melee enemies can be locked down by FoD. The fact that FoD's lockdown is guaranteed to happen is nice though, and for non-Orbizards it will probably end up being better in the long run. </p><p></p><p>So to sum things up, for Orbizards Sleep is the better spell, flat out. For most other Wizards, FoD is slightly better because it's more reliable (who wants to miss with a Daily? It's even worse when you make your initial attack but still waste it because they passed the first save!). Sleep is a pretty big gamble for Wizards not optimized for it, and some players may like that (I personally don't). </p><p></p><p>Sleep is a great choice for level 1, and FoD is a decent choice at level 9.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Correct. My point was that some people claim that Sleep is a bad spell because it only has a ~25% chance of putting something to sleep; my rebuttal to that is that you can target multiple creatures with it, so the chance of putting <em>something</em> to sleep is significantly higher. Of course, this applies to both spells.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with that. This is why I consider Sleep the superior spell (except for illusionist wizards).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nobody, but there are ways around that. Elven reroll, elf tonic, taclord...</p><p></p><p>Oh yeah, to throw one more argument into the equation: the competition. Sleep is not only an excellent spell, it also has very little competition at level one, because frankly most level one wizard dailies are mediocre (with a big exception for flaming sphere). FOD, on the other hand, has to compete against Wall of Fire, Vision of Ruin, Mordy's Sword, and even Ice Storm (because slowed in the middle of difficult terrain isn't much different from immobilized).</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by ixbn:</strong></p><p></p><p>Yes, until futrther clarification from WotC unconsious is a high magnitude better than helpless.</p><p></p><p>But you should notify that you compare unconscious + slowed to helpless + immobilized.</p><p>Still better but not by that magnitude (compared to unconscious vs. helpless).</p><p></p><p>For the competitors of FoD:</p><p>I would never take Mordy's Sword or Ice Storm.</p><p>However, I agree that Wall of Fire is the logical second choice for a wizard of that level and Visions of Ruin is a close competitor to FoD.</p><p></p><p>I never said sleep is bad. Sleep and Flamming Sphere are the logical choices of level one. I just think it is to unreliable to be my primary choice comparing it to FoD. Even if you consider the powers to be area powers there are always primary targets you really want to hit and you really want to take out or at least hamper as much as possible.</p><p></p><p>Taking out secondary or tertiary targets is all nice and well, but in my experience it is really all about the primary target in most cases.</p><p></p><p>However, usually I will choose on a case to case basis the following two combinations:</p><p></p><p>Sleep/Wall of fire <strong>or</strong> Flaming Sphere/FoD with no preference if I have no idea about what to face.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by randomchanze:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks for the detailed response! I was just thinking in terms of perhaps with each condition listed on the original post, make "spoiler" box below that lists all the powers by class that inflicts that condition as part of their potential effects. Still a load of work, but perhaps not as painful a formatting task.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by tavitin:</strong></p><p></p><p>I wish a guide that teaches how to control with other classes (maybe some tips, hints, feats, etc)</p><p></p><p>specially with the new Hybrid Rules, you can build a truly controller by not getting any controller class at all</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by chaosfang:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe the "how to control with other classes" is already covered by the guide itself, albeit yes it might be a bit more interesting if you have non-controller class-specific control tips.</p><p></p><p>Even without the hybrid rules, however, you <strong>can</strong> build non-controller class controllers, since every class has some sort of crowd control or square-restricting feature; one example would be the Fighter class who specializes in both reach weapons and area-affecting push/pull/slide + ailment-inducing powers (although it would likely be Combat Advantage + prone or daze, sorry I haven't played Fighter yet).</p><p></p><p>Highlights from the original guide (and I quote):</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>never focus on damage at the expense of status effects</strong>. Status effects are your bread and butter<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>target the weakest defense</strong> whenever you attack a monster.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You also need to <strong>know your allies</strong>!<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Controllers are all about affecting as much of the battlefield as they can<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">if you can engineer the situation so that you scrap the turn of multiple enemies with one power, that's all the better<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A controller that focuses on debuffs is sort of an anti-leader.<br /> </li> </ul><p></p><p>So what have we learned here? That controllers...</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">prioritize status effects<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">make sure they hit the intended targets<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">affect as many [UNKNOWN=del]: targets<br /> enemies as possible<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">cause enemies to do less than what they could do in a normal turn (if they can't or don't do anything at all against your party, all the better)<br /> </li> </ul><p></p><p>Can a paladin be a controller? Yes, but he'd have to invest in a lot of things since he's specialized in single target <em>defending</em>, and not group <em>controlling</em>. Can a fighter be a controller? Technically he already is a melee-based controller, but with the right investments yes he could be quite a good controller (potentially). Can a rogue be a controller? Likely yes, but he'd have to be less of a striker in some ways since he's investing into controller-like powers. Can a cleric|warlord be a controller? Possible but investing in debuffing items and summons may cause him to be less of a leader.</p><p></p><p>Situational? Yes. But possible? Of course. Heck, a party of 5 wizards could take all 4 roles since</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic Missile specialists could, at epic, cast 3 magic missiles <strong>per round</strong> (4 with AP, or 6 with Staff of Missile Mastery, thanks to Quickened Spell + Wizard's Fury), making one a striker<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Summoners or Staff users could go up front and be defenders since they [or their summons] could serve as meat shields if ever enemies do get past by Thunderwave spams and all that<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards who multiclass or hybrid into leader classes, or would constantly attempt First Aid on fallen allies and provide flanking/combat advantage whenever possible, would definitely be able to take the leader role<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards are controllers. 'Nuff said.<br /> </li> </ul><p></p><p>So a party who has hybrid/multiclass controllers|whatever combined with builds that focus on</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Status effect infliction<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Positioning of allies/foes<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Generally making life hell for the DM by limiting <em>his</em> options (instead of the other way around)<br /> </li> </ul><p></p><p>Would make any class controller-ish. Heck, tactics like tripping, grabbing/grappling, attempting a slash at the enemy's eyes, pinning enemies to the ground by targeting their clothing or what not, drugging/poisoning rations, and other stuff that do the above, are already controller-like actions...</p><p></p><p>... just not as good as those done by "true" controllers.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Hybrid controllers (like Fighter | Wizard) <strong>are</strong> still controllers though.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by moonglum:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>It should be noted that these three effects are extra effective against flying creatures (such as dragons). </p><p></p><p>If you knock a flying creature prone, it crashes. That makes some of the lower level powers that knock creatures prone very powerful against the right opponent in the right situation. </p><p></p><p>Also, if a flying creature without hover can't move more than 2 squares, it crashes. So immobilizing or restraining a flyer can crash it. </p><p></p><p>At paragon and epic tiers, I would say that controllers should definitely have a way to knock a creature prone at least once per day. And it should be saved in case a flyer is encountered.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by tavitin:</strong></p><p></p><p>what i was looking for was something like this:</p><p></p><p>a Compendium of useful feats'n'powers for non-controller classes that makes them controller (even if those feats are not class focused for them)</p><p></p><p>controlling is not a problem, but choosing the right feat is... specially for my Hybrid Earthstrength Warden/Warlock (vestige hybrid)</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by alien270:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks for pointing that out! It's a tactic I've used in play, but for some reason left it out of the guide (until now).</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by chaosfang:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>How many feats and powers would you like to take note considering that not everybody** has the time and patience to make a controller version of each and every class out there?</p><p></p><p>** the question is, is there anyone who could fit the bill?</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by helphelpe:</strong></p><p></p><p>Truly love this guide.</p><p></p><p>I started playing a year ago (4th edition) and my first char was a ranger (piew piew twin striker) but ater playing in a home campaign with a paladin for some time I wanted an LFR character with more versatility than just twin striking from a distance.</p><p></p><p>I now play a human druid and your guide truly helps someone with little to no controller experience build a nice controller and play it correctly too.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by alien270:</strong></p><p></p><p>Wow, the forum change made it even more difficult to edit old guides than I thought. Well, I fixed some of the formatting. Also updated a few miscellaneous things in light of new material. Most notably, I added the Psion and the Seeker to my controller classes section. I haven't played either of them though, so comments would be appreciated.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Alphastream:</strong></p><p></p><p>Psions are really strong controllers. The interesting thing about them is that you can often really bump or spike the control on an already good power. Take an at-will like Dishearten. Like scorching burst, but -2 to attack rolls for each target. Now you can spend one augment and they can't take OAs, or spend two and each target takes more damage and a penalty to attack rolls equal to your charisma.</p><p></p><p>The flexibility of the Psion is perfect for a controller, allowing the PC to tailor the control to the situation.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by raleel:</strong></p><p></p><p>A note on a control effect that I didn't see in there. Denying OAs (ala winged horde) is a flank preventer, according to page 285 of the PHB. A nice little action denier (the OAs) and a buff/debuff at the same time.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by keithio:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did not know that. Looked it up because I didn't believe you, but you are quite right.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by raleel:</strong></p><p></p><p>I didn't know that either until I read the rules that you just learned thread in the Q&A forum and had to go look it up. One of those tiny little things that makes a huge difference in things.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Klaumbaz:</strong></p><p></p><p>My wizard uses winged horde almost exclusively. It pisses off our riposte based rogue.</p><p></p><p>Use the extend area feat with it, make it a blast 2, you might not do damage at low levels, but the effect still applies.</p><p></p><p>in fact the dev's nerfed it becuase it's one of the few wizard AE powers that doesn't hurt party members.</p><p></p><p>With correct feat selection, it's one of the most underrated even with the nerf.</p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by aokarasu:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have to agree with this. I switched from a Wizard to a Psion a few months ago (same character, essentially, just changed class [DM's permission, of course.]) I don't feel very "one trick pony-ish" at all. Even at "only" level 5, the 4 power points per encounter allow me some decent leeway in exactly how I apply my effects.</p><p></p><p>If I want to slow a group of enemies until the end of my next turn (EMNT), there's Force Hammer. If I augment it with 1 point, they're slowed and unable to shift until EMNT. If I opt for the big blowout and spend 2 PP, they're knocked prone.</p><p></p><p>Alphastream already mentioned Dishearten.</p><p></p><p>Mindthrust is your RBA, and unaugmented, has no status effects. It is also single target, while the other two are Area Burst 1 within 10 squares. Pump it up with 1 PP, and your target takes a penalty to Will equal to your CHA modifier until EMNT. Pump it up 2 PP, and the base damage doubles (from 1d10 to 2d10), and lowers all defenses equal to CHA modifier until EMNT.</p><p></p><p>As a Telekinetic focus, I get the Encounter power "Forceful Push." Range of 10, no attack roll; I get to slide a target 1 square, but not into hindering terrain.</p><p></p><p>As a squishy, I opted for "Transport Self" for my Level 2 Utility. It's an Encounter Move Action that allows you to teleport yourself 1 plus your WIS modifier squares.</p><p></p><p>Hand of Caution is a nice Daily for Level 3. Range of 10, it targets Reflex, doing decent damage (2d8 + Int), half on a miss. The important thing is its effect: Until the end of the encounter, you can use a Minor action to push the target 1 square when it is within 5 squares of you. The effect ends if the Psion ends his/her turn next to the target.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by warrl:</strong></p><p></p><p>I'd like to put in a vote for Slowed being undervalued.</p><p></p><p>I played a dancing-chainsaw Ranger/Fighter hybrid in a large party, and I liked it when our Invoker would do something that Slowed most enemies over a large chunk of the battlefield. </p><p></p><p>When Slowed melee enemies tried to focus-fire on the nearest member of the party, it typically had the effect of just bunching them up conveniently for me to attack several of them and then dance away from the survivors through the gaps they created. Non-moving enemies don't move to create alternating clusters and voids.</p><p></p><p>And the enemies who tried to get away from me, couldn't. Granted, Immobilized or Stunned or Unconscious would have been even more effective on them, but Slowed was enough quite a lot of the time.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Undrhil:</strong></p><p></p><p>Is this thread going to get updated *at all*?</p><p></p><p>Fly (Hover) has nothing to do with immobilized anymore; all it does now is prevent a stunned flyer from falling.</p><p></p><p>Immobilize/Restrain doesn't make a flyer fall.</p><p></p><p>The Bladesinger is a (somewhat) melee controller... kind of.[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LightWarden, post: 6744902, member: 6803540"] [B]Miscellaneous Posting P2[/B] [sblock][b]Originally posted by akhorahil:[/b] This is incorrect. Helpless means that you can be Coup de Graced, that's all. Which means that the target fights on, except that it's really, [i]really[/i] vulnerable. With Sleep, you're rid of the monster in the meanwhile and can CdG to your heart's content later on. [b]Originally posted by ixbn:[/b] Be it as that may (I would rule differently) the rest of the counterpoints from me and my fellow poster still stand unquestionable and its not only immobilized after a miss for FoD, but after the save its still slowed, SE. You may still prefer sleep, but I happen to be of different opinion. Sleep is pretty useless if you do not hit, or if the target makes the first save. [b]Originally posted by ixbn:[/b] Sorry I forgot, being helpless also grants CA - even if you go for RAW only! So its not only autocrit but easier to hit too. [b]Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:[/b] And that is why it's an area effect. The strong point of sleep is that it does [i]so[/i] much more on a hit + failed save, that the fact that it does a bit less on a miss or succesful save isn't really relevant. Add to that the fact that sleep is available eight levels earlier, and subject to Salve of Power as well as the cheapest Mnemo Staff. Being slowed is only relevant if the monster has neither ranged attacks nor support powers, and is not in charge range from the party. As conditions go, it's easily the weakest. That applies to both spells, of course. Although yeah, WOTC should rule on whether they meant being "helpless" to also disallow taking actions. If it is, then FOD becomes better. For illusionists it is already better simply by virtue of being an illusion power. [b]Originally posted by akhorahil:[/b] I don't know, I think it beats Deafened. ;) [b]Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:[/b] I hadn't heard of that condition :P [b]Originally posted by ixbn:[/b] I think you missunderstood. O.K. lets try to sort it out: You are right about sleep being a first level power and therefore being subject to easy ways of geting it back. Now lets set that aside for a moment. Lets also set aside, that a Gnome Ilusionist has a higher probability of hitting with an Ilusion Power investing in a simple feat. Lets also set aside that we may face solos, which have a bonus to saves. Lets assume the probability of hitting is about 50%. Let us further assume that we have a not optimised lockdown wizard (taking into account, that this is not the only viable path), but he has a wisdom bonus of +3 at lvl 9 and an Orb of imposition +2. For every target we get the following possibilities: Sleep: 50% hit, condition slowed after targets turn: successful save 30%, no condition failed save 70%, condition unconscious + slowed (SE invidually) 50% miss, condition slowed after targets turn: successful save 30%, no condition failed save 70%, condition slowed (SE) FoD: 50% hit, condition immobilized after targets turn: successful save 30%, aftereffect slowed (SE) failed save 70%, condition helpless + immobilized (SE individually) 50% miss, condition immobilized after targets turn: successful save 30%, aftereffect Slowed (SE) failed save 70 %, condition immobilized (SE) So for the first round for any given target sleep is inferior in 100% of the cases. For the second round for any given target sleep is superior in 0.5 *0.7*100% = 35% of all cases. For the third round it is a little more complex, depending on the following: Is one of the failed save made this time and if so, which of the saves is made. Or are even both saves successful. However the over all probability does not get better for sleep, so I will cut it here. I agree, that sleep is a very good spell, [b][u]IF[/u][/b] it works out well. Especially considering it to be first level. Else you have practically wasted a turn, because slowed is weak and in about 65 % of the cases that is the best you get in the second round (could even be wose and you get nothing in 30% of all cases). I personally prefer the much more reliable spell but YMMV. There is only one thing i would like to mention: please refrain from cutting things I have said presenting them totally out of context and therefore giving readers a totally wrong picture of my argument. I, personally consider this to be a matter of character and fairness. But I am quit sure this was not done on purpose and therfore will not happen again. Thank you for your fairness in advance! [b]Originally posted by alien270:[/b] Not sure if you intended to imply that Sleep being an AoE made it superior (among other reasons) to FoD, but I just thought I'd point out that FoD is also an AoE. In terms of initial effects, FoD is unequivocally superior because immobilized (save ends) > slowed (save ends). Both apply their initial effects on a hit or miss, so no advantage either way in that sense. Oddly though, on the first failed save Sleep > FoD because unconscious is just flat out superior to helpless. Moreover, I would argue that the magnitude of unconscious's superiority over helpless is greater than the magnitude of the superiority of immobilized over slowed (hope that made sense, I wasn't sure how to best word it). [i][b]Any[/b][/i] unconscious creature is both subject to coup de graces and cannot retaliate. Helpless creatures are subject to coup de graces and can retaliate (both conditions grant CA, so they're even there). For immobilized, only melee enemies not adjacent to targets are hindered (granted, that's probably all you would use the power one, but it does make it more situational) and once again only melee enemies are really hindered by slowed. FoD does come with an aftereffect, but unfortunately it's slowed (same as the main effect of Sleep). So what exactly does this mean in terms of which power is superior? It really depends on the build. Sleep is superior if the target fails its first save, and so for a build that utilizes a lot of save penalties Sleep is overall the better choice (and accessible at level 1). Also, in terms of which power is better at lockdown Sleep once again comes out on top (for Orbizards at least) because it's less situational. You can lock down anyone by making them unconscious. Only melee enemies can be locked down by FoD. The fact that FoD's lockdown is guaranteed to happen is nice though, and for non-Orbizards it will probably end up being better in the long run. So to sum things up, for Orbizards Sleep is the better spell, flat out. For most other Wizards, FoD is slightly better because it's more reliable (who wants to miss with a Daily? It's even worse when you make your initial attack but still waste it because they passed the first save!). Sleep is a pretty big gamble for Wizards not optimized for it, and some players may like that (I personally don't). Sleep is a great choice for level 1, and FoD is a decent choice at level 9. [b]Originally posted by Kurald_Galain:[/b] Correct. My point was that some people claim that Sleep is a bad spell because it only has a ~25% chance of putting something to sleep; my rebuttal to that is that you can target multiple creatures with it, so the chance of putting [i]something[/i] to sleep is significantly higher. Of course, this applies to both spells. I agree with that. This is why I consider Sleep the superior spell (except for illusionist wizards). Nobody, but there are ways around that. Elven reroll, elf tonic, taclord... Oh yeah, to throw one more argument into the equation: the competition. Sleep is not only an excellent spell, it also has very little competition at level one, because frankly most level one wizard dailies are mediocre (with a big exception for flaming sphere). FOD, on the other hand, has to compete against Wall of Fire, Vision of Ruin, Mordy's Sword, and even Ice Storm (because slowed in the middle of difficult terrain isn't much different from immobilized). [b]Originally posted by ixbn:[/b] Yes, until futrther clarification from WotC unconsious is a high magnitude better than helpless. But you should notify that you compare unconscious + slowed to helpless + immobilized. Still better but not by that magnitude (compared to unconscious vs. helpless). For the competitors of FoD: I would never take Mordy's Sword or Ice Storm. However, I agree that Wall of Fire is the logical second choice for a wizard of that level and Visions of Ruin is a close competitor to FoD. I never said sleep is bad. Sleep and Flamming Sphere are the logical choices of level one. I just think it is to unreliable to be my primary choice comparing it to FoD. Even if you consider the powers to be area powers there are always primary targets you really want to hit and you really want to take out or at least hamper as much as possible. Taking out secondary or tertiary targets is all nice and well, but in my experience it is really all about the primary target in most cases. However, usually I will choose on a case to case basis the following two combinations: Sleep/Wall of fire [b]or[/b] Flaming Sphere/FoD with no preference if I have no idea about what to face. [b]Originally posted by randomchanze:[/b] Thanks for the detailed response! I was just thinking in terms of perhaps with each condition listed on the original post, make "spoiler" box below that lists all the powers by class that inflicts that condition as part of their potential effects. Still a load of work, but perhaps not as painful a formatting task. [b]Originally posted by tavitin:[/b] I wish a guide that teaches how to control with other classes (maybe some tips, hints, feats, etc) specially with the new Hybrid Rules, you can build a truly controller by not getting any controller class at all [b]Originally posted by chaosfang:[/b] I believe the "how to control with other classes" is already covered by the guide itself, albeit yes it might be a bit more interesting if you have non-controller class-specific control tips. Even without the hybrid rules, however, you [b]can[/b] build non-controller class controllers, since every class has some sort of crowd control or square-restricting feature; one example would be the Fighter class who specializes in both reach weapons and area-affecting push/pull/slide + ailment-inducing powers (although it would likely be Combat Advantage + prone or daze, sorry I haven't played Fighter yet). Highlights from the original guide (and I quote): [LIST][*][b]never focus on damage at the expense of status effects[/b]. Status effects are your bread and butter [*][b]target the weakest defense[/b] whenever you attack a monster. [*]You also need to [b]know your allies[/b]! [*]Controllers are all about affecting as much of the battlefield as they can [*]if you can engineer the situation so that you scrap the turn of multiple enemies with one power, that's all the better [*]A controller that focuses on debuffs is sort of an anti-leader. [/LIST] So what have we learned here? That controllers... [LIST][*]prioritize status effects [*]make sure they hit the intended targets [*]affect as many [UNKNOWN=del]: targets enemies as possible [*]cause enemies to do less than what they could do in a normal turn (if they can't or don't do anything at all against your party, all the better) [/LIST] Can a paladin be a controller? Yes, but he'd have to invest in a lot of things since he's specialized in single target [i]defending[/i], and not group [i]controlling[/i]. Can a fighter be a controller? Technically he already is a melee-based controller, but with the right investments yes he could be quite a good controller (potentially). Can a rogue be a controller? Likely yes, but he'd have to be less of a striker in some ways since he's investing into controller-like powers. Can a cleric|warlord be a controller? Possible but investing in debuffing items and summons may cause him to be less of a leader. Situational? Yes. But possible? Of course. Heck, a party of 5 wizards could take all 4 roles since [LIST][*]Magic Missile specialists could, at epic, cast 3 magic missiles [b]per round[/b] (4 with AP, or 6 with Staff of Missile Mastery, thanks to Quickened Spell + Wizard's Fury), making one a striker [*]Summoners or Staff users could go up front and be defenders since they [or their summons] could serve as meat shields if ever enemies do get past by Thunderwave spams and all that [*]Wizards who multiclass or hybrid into leader classes, or would constantly attempt First Aid on fallen allies and provide flanking/combat advantage whenever possible, would definitely be able to take the leader role [*]Wizards are controllers. 'Nuff said. [/LIST] So a party who has hybrid/multiclass controllers|whatever combined with builds that focus on [LIST][*]Status effect infliction [*]Positioning of allies/foes [*]Generally making life hell for the DM by limiting [i]his[/i] options (instead of the other way around) [/LIST] Would make any class controller-ish. Heck, tactics like tripping, grabbing/grappling, attempting a slash at the enemy's eyes, pinning enemies to the ground by targeting their clothing or what not, drugging/poisoning rations, and other stuff that do the above, are already controller-like actions... ... just not as good as those done by "true" controllers. EDIT: Hybrid controllers (like Fighter | Wizard) [b]are[/b] still controllers though. [b]Originally posted by moonglum:[/b] It should be noted that these three effects are extra effective against flying creatures (such as dragons). If you knock a flying creature prone, it crashes. That makes some of the lower level powers that knock creatures prone very powerful against the right opponent in the right situation. Also, if a flying creature without hover can't move more than 2 squares, it crashes. So immobilizing or restraining a flyer can crash it. At paragon and epic tiers, I would say that controllers should definitely have a way to knock a creature prone at least once per day. And it should be saved in case a flyer is encountered. [b]Originally posted by tavitin:[/b] what i was looking for was something like this: a Compendium of useful feats'n'powers for non-controller classes that makes them controller (even if those feats are not class focused for them) controlling is not a problem, but choosing the right feat is... specially for my Hybrid Earthstrength Warden/Warlock (vestige hybrid) [b]Originally posted by alien270:[/b] Thanks for pointing that out! It's a tactic I've used in play, but for some reason left it out of the guide (until now). [b]Originally posted by chaosfang:[/b] How many feats and powers would you like to take note considering that not everybody** has the time and patience to make a controller version of each and every class out there? ** the question is, is there anyone who could fit the bill? [b]Originally posted by helphelpe:[/b] Truly love this guide. I started playing a year ago (4th edition) and my first char was a ranger (piew piew twin striker) but ater playing in a home campaign with a paladin for some time I wanted an LFR character with more versatility than just twin striking from a distance. I now play a human druid and your guide truly helps someone with little to no controller experience build a nice controller and play it correctly too. [b]Originally posted by alien270:[/b] Wow, the forum change made it even more difficult to edit old guides than I thought. Well, I fixed some of the formatting. Also updated a few miscellaneous things in light of new material. Most notably, I added the Psion and the Seeker to my controller classes section. I haven't played either of them though, so comments would be appreciated. [b]Originally posted by Alphastream:[/b] Psions are really strong controllers. The interesting thing about them is that you can often really bump or spike the control on an already good power. Take an at-will like Dishearten. Like scorching burst, but -2 to attack rolls for each target. Now you can spend one augment and they can't take OAs, or spend two and each target takes more damage and a penalty to attack rolls equal to your charisma. The flexibility of the Psion is perfect for a controller, allowing the PC to tailor the control to the situation. [b]Originally posted by raleel:[/b] A note on a control effect that I didn't see in there. Denying OAs (ala winged horde) is a flank preventer, according to page 285 of the PHB. A nice little action denier (the OAs) and a buff/debuff at the same time. [b]Originally posted by keithio:[/b] I did not know that. Looked it up because I didn't believe you, but you are quite right. [b]Originally posted by raleel:[/b] I didn't know that either until I read the rules that you just learned thread in the Q&A forum and had to go look it up. One of those tiny little things that makes a huge difference in things. [b]Originally posted by Klaumbaz:[/b] My wizard uses winged horde almost exclusively. It pisses off our riposte based rogue. Use the extend area feat with it, make it a blast 2, you might not do damage at low levels, but the effect still applies. in fact the dev's nerfed it becuase it's one of the few wizard AE powers that doesn't hurt party members. With correct feat selection, it's one of the most underrated even with the nerf. [b]Originally posted by aokarasu:[/b] I have to agree with this. I switched from a Wizard to a Psion a few months ago (same character, essentially, just changed class [DM's permission, of course.]) I don't feel very "one trick pony-ish" at all. Even at "only" level 5, the 4 power points per encounter allow me some decent leeway in exactly how I apply my effects. If I want to slow a group of enemies until the end of my next turn (EMNT), there's Force Hammer. If I augment it with 1 point, they're slowed and unable to shift until EMNT. If I opt for the big blowout and spend 2 PP, they're knocked prone. Alphastream already mentioned Dishearten. Mindthrust is your RBA, and unaugmented, has no status effects. It is also single target, while the other two are Area Burst 1 within 10 squares. Pump it up with 1 PP, and your target takes a penalty to Will equal to your CHA modifier until EMNT. Pump it up 2 PP, and the base damage doubles (from 1d10 to 2d10), and lowers all defenses equal to CHA modifier until EMNT. As a Telekinetic focus, I get the Encounter power "Forceful Push." Range of 10, no attack roll; I get to slide a target 1 square, but not into hindering terrain. As a squishy, I opted for "Transport Self" for my Level 2 Utility. It's an Encounter Move Action that allows you to teleport yourself 1 plus your WIS modifier squares. Hand of Caution is a nice Daily for Level 3. Range of 10, it targets Reflex, doing decent damage (2d8 + Int), half on a miss. The important thing is its effect: Until the end of the encounter, you can use a Minor action to push the target 1 square when it is within 5 squares of you. The effect ends if the Psion ends his/her turn next to the target. [b]Originally posted by warrl:[/b] I'd like to put in a vote for Slowed being undervalued. I played a dancing-chainsaw Ranger/Fighter hybrid in a large party, and I liked it when our Invoker would do something that Slowed most enemies over a large chunk of the battlefield. When Slowed melee enemies tried to focus-fire on the nearest member of the party, it typically had the effect of just bunching them up conveniently for me to attack several of them and then dance away from the survivors through the gaps they created. Non-moving enemies don't move to create alternating clusters and voids. And the enemies who tried to get away from me, couldn't. Granted, Immobilized or Stunned or Unconscious would have been even more effective on them, but Slowed was enough quite a lot of the time. [b]Originally posted by Undrhil:[/b] Is this thread going to get updated *at all*? Fly (Hover) has nothing to do with immobilized anymore; all it does now is prevent a stunned flyer from falling. Immobilize/Restrain doesn't make a flyer fall. The Bladesinger is a (somewhat) melee controller... kind of.[/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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The Art of Controlling: Controlling 101 (by alien270)
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