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the Awakened Animal thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Conaill" data-source="post: 1467059" data-attributes="member: 1264"><p>Just so we're all on the same page, let me cross-post Will's argument from <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1295980#post1295980" target="_blank">this thread</a>:</p><p></p><p>And to clarify: A lycanthrope's ECL is equal to the original creature's ECL, plus the base animal's HD, plus 2 or 3 (depending on whether it's an "afflicted" or "natural" lycanthrope). So compared to a normal wolf, a standard werewolf would be one HD higher, and have a LA of +2 or +3.</p><p></p><p>I've just deleted a whole convoluted reasoning for why this argument would lead to approximately ECL = HD + 1 (the additional benefits the lycanthrope gets don't seem to add up add up to +2 or +3 LA). But fact is that a were-wolf is just such a different beast from an awakened wolf that this sort of comparison is bound to be somewhat suspect.</p><p></p><p>In fact, I'm not convinced that the lycanthrope template Level Adjustment rules are all that great to begin with. For example, I'm 100% certain that a were - giant octopus would be hugely overpowered, because of it's NINE attacks per round. Note that most animals have a CR of around half their HD. Because of it's extra attacks, the Giant Octopus has a CR 8, for an 8 HD creature. Clearly in this case there are additional factors that *are* incorporated into it's CR, but not reflected in it's HD. And those additional factors should definitely be taken into account when calculating it's Level Adjustment as well, for the Awakened form <em>as well as</em> for the lycanthrope form! </p><p></p><p>(BTW, my quick-and-dirty rule would account for that nicely: it would give the awakened Giant Octopus a +5 LA. Still doesn't account for other factors that wouldn't be included in the CR, of course.)</p><p></p><p>Which brings us back to... well, calculating LA using the Savage Species approach, I guess. I would much rather trust individually verified LA's rather than "that's how the lycanthrope template does it". If Will's claim that animal HD are a "package" that should count one-to-one towards ECL is correct, then the LA calculation and playtesting should bear that out. So far, based on the equivalencies that are already in the MM (Awakened Wolf <-> Worg etc), I don't think it does.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Conaill, post: 1467059, member: 1264"] Just so we're all on the same page, let me cross-post Will's argument from [url=http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1295980#post1295980]this thread[/url]: And to clarify: A lycanthrope's ECL is equal to the original creature's ECL, plus the base animal's HD, plus 2 or 3 (depending on whether it's an "afflicted" or "natural" lycanthrope). So compared to a normal wolf, a standard werewolf would be one HD higher, and have a LA of +2 or +3. I've just deleted a whole convoluted reasoning for why this argument would lead to approximately ECL = HD + 1 (the additional benefits the lycanthrope gets don't seem to add up add up to +2 or +3 LA). But fact is that a were-wolf is just such a different beast from an awakened wolf that this sort of comparison is bound to be somewhat suspect. In fact, I'm not convinced that the lycanthrope template Level Adjustment rules are all that great to begin with. For example, I'm 100% certain that a were - giant octopus would be hugely overpowered, because of it's NINE attacks per round. Note that most animals have a CR of around half their HD. Because of it's extra attacks, the Giant Octopus has a CR 8, for an 8 HD creature. Clearly in this case there are additional factors that *are* incorporated into it's CR, but not reflected in it's HD. And those additional factors should definitely be taken into account when calculating it's Level Adjustment as well, for the Awakened form [i]as well as[/i] for the lycanthrope form! (BTW, my quick-and-dirty rule would account for that nicely: it would give the awakened Giant Octopus a +5 LA. Still doesn't account for other factors that wouldn't be included in the CR, of course.) Which brings us back to... well, calculating LA using the Savage Species approach, I guess. I would much rather trust individually verified LA's rather than "that's how the lycanthrope template does it". If Will's claim that animal HD are a "package" that should count one-to-one towards ECL is correct, then the LA calculation and playtesting should bear that out. So far, based on the equivalencies that are already in the MM (Awakened Wolf <-> Worg etc), I don't think it does. [/QUOTE]
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