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The basic tenet of the Wizard: More
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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 4684201" data-attributes="member: 2020"><p>My thank you, my appreciation, to those of you who have complimented me and my posts here. I really do appreciate it. Thanks again!</p><p></p><p> You know what?</p><p></p><p> When I was a kid, back around 1980 (literally, three decades ago!) we kids were having the same kinds of arguments, that were taking place here on ENWorld with 3rd Edition in large numbers concerning class balance and game balance, especially where the wizard is concerned.</p><p> We didn't call it Balance. Nobody had thought up the term yet (not, at least, as something to use generically), but that's what was being debated.</p><p></p><p> Lots of kids were pointing at overpowerful (sometimes, Waldorf level) wizards, and to a lesser extent overpowered Other Classes.</p><p> A lot of people were complaining about how lame the monk was (everyone thought the monk was hopelessly underpowered, or ... simply ... hopeless.)</p><p> Others complained about the Big, Bad Bard (level 15 at 1st level!)</p><p> And when the Cavalier-Paladin (Unearthed Arcana 1E) came out, that generated quite a storm. (Heck, even the cavalier alone was a riot.)</p><p></p><p> In the 1E DMG, Gary Gygax warned about Monty Haulism. I'm sure the term didn't start with him there, but I believe that's where it became popular ('these characters run around, dozens of artifacts and mighty magical items bedecking them like they were Christmas Trees decked out in tinsel and ornaments ... and the game is a crashing bore.' to paraphrase.)</p><p> So, we had all these problems with Balance, way back then. It is nothing new.</p><p></p><p> I rarely saw single classed wizards played, way back then, either. Just too difficult to play, and keep alive. Wizards were sorta viewed as hopeless critters, like the poor monk. (Ironic, since the fighter/mage was the most popular class in the game ... get all the fighter abilities AND those spell goodies AND access to all the magical items of both classes.) Since only elves could be fighter/mages, the jokes about elves began around that time, and have continued since ...</p><p></p><p> However, a few players made it with single classed wizards, got them to high level, and stomped the campaign into the ground with assorted Shapechanges, Time Stops, Wishes, and self invented spells the likes of which you don't want to imagine (I hope!)</p><p></p><p> I have to sorta laugh at this. It's a laughing matter, even if I - and everyone else - has spent three decades discussing, arguing, and debating about it, and it has proved tremendously problematic (don't we *ALL* know just *how* problematic!!!) these imbalances have proven to be.</p><p> Why not laugh?</p><p> It was built into the game at the start.</p><p></p><p> I'm not criticizing the game, and certainly not criticizing the Founders of the game! Quite the contrary - D&D is a great game (I wouldn't be talking about it 30 years after starting in it, if I didn't think so!)</p><p> But we had this built in situation at the start, which I discussed in my OP, and which has caused us all assorted headaches ever since.</p><p></p><p> Yeah, the other classes suffered from the same problem. </p><p> Someone pointed out the Fighter had problems at the start. Did he? You bet!</p><p> He could start at 1 hit point, started with THAC0 20, started with 1 attack per round, didn't have the gold to buy plate mail (it was 400 gp, and he started with far less than that!), and he had to duke it out hand-to-hand with all the monsters. Everyone expected this, for he was the *fighter.* No hiding behind other party members for him!</p><p></p><p> And we all know how great a spell selection the cleric started out with (not!) And what his chances were of turning undead.</p><p> The thief? 'Open that trapped door, thief!' LOL. (You have about a 10% chance of success ... didn't make it? Roll that save versus poison!)</p><p></p><p> The drive for More was institutionalized with everyone.</p><p> For the monk, More didn't help. More just meant fighting other monks (and losing.) For the other classes, More meant a better shot at survival.</p><p></p><p> And, as I said, More is in contrast with Balance. Bit of an enigma.</p><p> Gary Gygax tried to address this enigma. He said, in the 1E DMG, that the way to address the situation was to keep the carrot in from of the characters constantly, forever in effect. Fulfillment of their desires ruined the game. He was right, but of course not every DM could do this ... keep that carrot forever in front of their players! (regardless of what players think, DMs are *not* Perfect People, with infinite patience and wisdom and knowledge.)</p><p></p><p> Someone above asked: what is the point of this thread?</p><p> This is the point.</p><p> The game was created with this enigmatic situation, where it encouraged the Get More attitude relentlessly ('you brought 20,000 gp home in that large sack? Get 20,000 experience points!') But without Balance, the fun ultimately collapses. And the More and Balance are at odds with each other!</p><p></p><p> I just happened to think that the single classed wizard, starting out with basically Nothing, and being required to pursue the More harder than any other viable class (I do not think of the poor monk as ever having been viable), and her high powered spells (6th level and up, as someone else in this thread pointed out) being more disruptive and gamebreaking than any other mechanic, is the epitome of the enigma of the D&D game.</p><p></p><p> We gamers have all gone on to play the game anyways, and we have had tons of fun with it, and made the wizard work (and even the monk!), and overcome all these enigmatic problems!</p><p> We have, however, experienced a few debates and arguments along the way. And the occasional hillarious situation, such as the whole Waldorf Situation. You just gotta laugh, when you read (and remember) situations like that one. : )</p><p></p><p> Just some general commentary on my part. Personal thoughts and opinions, and recollections. My take on some things.</p><p></p><p> Yours Sincerely</p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 4684201, member: 2020"] My thank you, my appreciation, to those of you who have complimented me and my posts here. I really do appreciate it. Thanks again! You know what? When I was a kid, back around 1980 (literally, three decades ago!) we kids were having the same kinds of arguments, that were taking place here on ENWorld with 3rd Edition in large numbers concerning class balance and game balance, especially where the wizard is concerned. We didn't call it Balance. Nobody had thought up the term yet (not, at least, as something to use generically), but that's what was being debated. Lots of kids were pointing at overpowerful (sometimes, Waldorf level) wizards, and to a lesser extent overpowered Other Classes. A lot of people were complaining about how lame the monk was (everyone thought the monk was hopelessly underpowered, or ... simply ... hopeless.) Others complained about the Big, Bad Bard (level 15 at 1st level!) And when the Cavalier-Paladin (Unearthed Arcana 1E) came out, that generated quite a storm. (Heck, even the cavalier alone was a riot.) In the 1E DMG, Gary Gygax warned about Monty Haulism. I'm sure the term didn't start with him there, but I believe that's where it became popular ('these characters run around, dozens of artifacts and mighty magical items bedecking them like they were Christmas Trees decked out in tinsel and ornaments ... and the game is a crashing bore.' to paraphrase.) So, we had all these problems with Balance, way back then. It is nothing new. I rarely saw single classed wizards played, way back then, either. Just too difficult to play, and keep alive. Wizards were sorta viewed as hopeless critters, like the poor monk. (Ironic, since the fighter/mage was the most popular class in the game ... get all the fighter abilities AND those spell goodies AND access to all the magical items of both classes.) Since only elves could be fighter/mages, the jokes about elves began around that time, and have continued since ... However, a few players made it with single classed wizards, got them to high level, and stomped the campaign into the ground with assorted Shapechanges, Time Stops, Wishes, and self invented spells the likes of which you don't want to imagine (I hope!) I have to sorta laugh at this. It's a laughing matter, even if I - and everyone else - has spent three decades discussing, arguing, and debating about it, and it has proved tremendously problematic (don't we *ALL* know just *how* problematic!!!) these imbalances have proven to be. Why not laugh? It was built into the game at the start. I'm not criticizing the game, and certainly not criticizing the Founders of the game! Quite the contrary - D&D is a great game (I wouldn't be talking about it 30 years after starting in it, if I didn't think so!) But we had this built in situation at the start, which I discussed in my OP, and which has caused us all assorted headaches ever since. Yeah, the other classes suffered from the same problem. Someone pointed out the Fighter had problems at the start. Did he? You bet! He could start at 1 hit point, started with THAC0 20, started with 1 attack per round, didn't have the gold to buy plate mail (it was 400 gp, and he started with far less than that!), and he had to duke it out hand-to-hand with all the monsters. Everyone expected this, for he was the *fighter.* No hiding behind other party members for him! And we all know how great a spell selection the cleric started out with (not!) And what his chances were of turning undead. The thief? 'Open that trapped door, thief!' LOL. (You have about a 10% chance of success ... didn't make it? Roll that save versus poison!) The drive for More was institutionalized with everyone. For the monk, More didn't help. More just meant fighting other monks (and losing.) For the other classes, More meant a better shot at survival. And, as I said, More is in contrast with Balance. Bit of an enigma. Gary Gygax tried to address this enigma. He said, in the 1E DMG, that the way to address the situation was to keep the carrot in from of the characters constantly, forever in effect. Fulfillment of their desires ruined the game. He was right, but of course not every DM could do this ... keep that carrot forever in front of their players! (regardless of what players think, DMs are *not* Perfect People, with infinite patience and wisdom and knowledge.) Someone above asked: what is the point of this thread? This is the point. The game was created with this enigmatic situation, where it encouraged the Get More attitude relentlessly ('you brought 20,000 gp home in that large sack? Get 20,000 experience points!') But without Balance, the fun ultimately collapses. And the More and Balance are at odds with each other! I just happened to think that the single classed wizard, starting out with basically Nothing, and being required to pursue the More harder than any other viable class (I do not think of the poor monk as ever having been viable), and her high powered spells (6th level and up, as someone else in this thread pointed out) being more disruptive and gamebreaking than any other mechanic, is the epitome of the enigma of the D&D game. We gamers have all gone on to play the game anyways, and we have had tons of fun with it, and made the wizard work (and even the monk!), and overcome all these enigmatic problems! We have, however, experienced a few debates and arguments along the way. And the occasional hillarious situation, such as the whole Waldorf Situation. You just gotta laugh, when you read (and remember) situations like that one. : ) Just some general commentary on my part. Personal thoughts and opinions, and recollections. My take on some things. Yours Sincerely Edena_of_Neith [/QUOTE]
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