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The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7770585" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>Wall of text... HOOOOOO!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a lot to go into with Bill Maher's comments. You can attack the ignorance at so many different levels. </p><p></p><p>First, there's the foolish attacks on comic books and dismissing them as literature. Which is wholly ignorant when you consider that "comic books" are a medium and not a genre, and his statement is akin to criticising "novels" or "magazine articles". </p><p>Comics have produced fantastic works of art. Even adhering to the "super hero" genre most people associate with comic books, there are the assorted works of Alan Moore, such as <em>Swamp Thing</em>, <em>Batman: The Killing Joke</em>, and <em>Watchmen<em>. But from that same author there is also <em>From Hell</em> and <em>League of Extraordinary Gentlemen</em>, which are pretty far from superheroes. And this is without getting into work like the Pulitzer Prize winning <em>Maus</em>. Or the award winning and critically acclaimed <em>Persepolis</em>, <em>Ghost World<em>, <em>A Contract With God</em>, <em>Smile</em>, or <em>A Tale of One Bad Rat</em>. Then there's the adult semi-ongoing series, like <em>Y: The Last Man</em>, <em>Fables</em>, <em>Saga</em>, or <em>Preacher</em>. And sooooo many more. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>The idea that comics are just for kids is a stigma that fans of the medium have been trying to shake for decades, and something many modern fans are hypersensitive about. So wading into this is pretty foolish of Maher. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>The comment on dressing like kids is dependant on arbitrary distinctions. There's nothing inherently special or mature about a suit and tie. What is or is not a childish hobby is variable and entirely a social construct. The difference between cosplay and historical reenactment is flimsy, but if you called Civil War reenactors childish they'd puff up their hilarious hipster facial hair then challenge you to a duel with their toy guns. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>Then there's the comment about action figures, which he then mockingly segues from calling "dolls". Which is a transition that is SEXIST AS EFF. Because "dolls" are not any less juvenile than "action figures" and that he thinks the former is more insulting says more about his gender perceptions than it says about his nerd perceptions. Collecting toys marketing for children is pretty childish at face value. But, again, that the toys are for children is an arbitrary social fiction. Model train sets are considered "adult" as are things like ships in a bottle. And how many women collect porcelain dolls without stigma? </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>That said, I think people are clinging to their childhoods a little more. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>This really comes out of the fallout of Generation X. All the Millennials and Zillennials (the generation between X and Millennials) watched people come of age and just be sad and depressed, or are the children of people who gave up childish pursuits, regretted it, and aren't making their children do the same. We're the generation that saw people endlessly chase money in the '80s, working their whole lives in the acquisition of wealth, and not getting any happier. So we're quite willing to actually DO something that makes us happy. More willing to keep a hobby that might be childish but that brings us joy. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>Now… are GAMES and activities like "D&D" childish as well? </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>I doubt anyone would come down on "all games" as childish. Games like <em>Axis & Allies</em> and <em>Risk</em> have always been for grown ups. And there are the myriad party games for all ages and adults. And that's without considering games like chess, backgammon, or checkers. </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>The complexity of D&D makes it firmly "not for small children". As do its origins: D&D was the result of homebrewing and hacking grown-up wargames. And its creators and initial players were all grown men. Even in its early years, the youngest ages it appealed to was Junior High school students, who would have chafed at being called "children". </em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>That said, just because something is not for children, doesn't automatically make it mature or adult. A regular complaint that I have is that you don't make something more "adult" simply by making it inappropriate for children. <em>Deadpool</em> is super not-for-kids and, as a rated-R movie, it is not for anyone younger than 18. But the target audience for 90% of its humour is 12-17 year olds. This is a big complaint of mine for much of <em>Vampire the Masquerade</em> and similar "mature" RPGs, which make the mistake of assuming the best way of being adult is to drop a few eff-bombs and casually reference sex, pornography, drug use, and the like.</em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em></em></em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em><em>D&D can also matter to people. It's something you can take very seriously and become very important to you. If RPGs are a major hobby or source of relaxation, they can be very important to your mental health. As a group activity, they may also be a major source of social contact. And the characters and stories created during play can be very important. The game is imaginary but the feelings it generates are real. I recently lost a character at the table, and the sadness I felt was wholly real. That person was gone. Forever. That they entirely lived in my head and at the game table was irrelevant.</em></em></em></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7770585, member: 37579"] Wall of text... HOOOOOO! There's a lot to go into with Bill Maher's comments. You can attack the ignorance at so many different levels. First, there's the foolish attacks on comic books and dismissing them as literature. Which is wholly ignorant when you consider that "comic books" are a medium and not a genre, and his statement is akin to criticising "novels" or "magazine articles". Comics have produced fantastic works of art. Even adhering to the "super hero" genre most people associate with comic books, there are the assorted works of Alan Moore, such as [i]Swamp Thing[/i], [i]Batman: The Killing Joke[/i], and [i]Watchmen[i]. But from that same author there is also [i]From Hell[/i] and [i]League of Extraordinary Gentlemen[/i], which are pretty far from superheroes. And this is without getting into work like the Pulitzer Prize winning [i]Maus[/i]. Or the award winning and critically acclaimed [i]Persepolis[/i], [i]Ghost World[i], [i]A Contract With God[/i], [i]Smile[/i], or [i]A Tale of One Bad Rat[/i]. Then there's the adult semi-ongoing series, like [i]Y: The Last Man[/i], [i]Fables[/i], [i]Saga[/i], or [i]Preacher[/i]. And sooooo many more. The idea that comics are just for kids is a stigma that fans of the medium have been trying to shake for decades, and something many modern fans are hypersensitive about. So wading into this is pretty foolish of Maher. The comment on dressing like kids is dependant on arbitrary distinctions. There's nothing inherently special or mature about a suit and tie. What is or is not a childish hobby is variable and entirely a social construct. The difference between cosplay and historical reenactment is flimsy, but if you called Civil War reenactors childish they'd puff up their hilarious hipster facial hair then challenge you to a duel with their toy guns. Then there's the comment about action figures, which he then mockingly segues from calling "dolls". Which is a transition that is SEXIST AS EFF. Because "dolls" are not any less juvenile than "action figures" and that he thinks the former is more insulting says more about his gender perceptions than it says about his nerd perceptions. Collecting toys marketing for children is pretty childish at face value. But, again, that the toys are for children is an arbitrary social fiction. Model train sets are considered "adult" as are things like ships in a bottle. And how many women collect porcelain dolls without stigma? That said, I think people are clinging to their childhoods a little more. This really comes out of the fallout of Generation X. All the Millennials and Zillennials (the generation between X and Millennials) watched people come of age and just be sad and depressed, or are the children of people who gave up childish pursuits, regretted it, and aren't making their children do the same. We're the generation that saw people endlessly chase money in the '80s, working their whole lives in the acquisition of wealth, and not getting any happier. So we're quite willing to actually DO something that makes us happy. More willing to keep a hobby that might be childish but that brings us joy. Now… are GAMES and activities like "D&D" childish as well? I doubt anyone would come down on "all games" as childish. Games like [i]Axis & Allies[/i] and [i]Risk[/i] have always been for grown ups. And there are the myriad party games for all ages and adults. And that's without considering games like chess, backgammon, or checkers. The complexity of D&D makes it firmly "not for small children". As do its origins: D&D was the result of homebrewing and hacking grown-up wargames. And its creators and initial players were all grown men. Even in its early years, the youngest ages it appealed to was Junior High school students, who would have chafed at being called "children". That said, just because something is not for children, doesn't automatically make it mature or adult. A regular complaint that I have is that you don't make something more "adult" simply by making it inappropriate for children. [i]Deadpool[/i] is super not-for-kids and, as a rated-R movie, it is not for anyone younger than 18. But the target audience for 90% of its humour is 12-17 year olds. This is a big complaint of mine for much of [i]Vampire the Masquerade[/i] and similar "mature" RPGs, which make the mistake of assuming the best way of being adult is to drop a few eff-bombs and casually reference sex, pornography, drug use, and the like. D&D can also matter to people. It's something you can take very seriously and become very important to you. If RPGs are a major hobby or source of relaxation, they can be very important to your mental health. As a group activity, they may also be a major source of social contact. And the characters and stories created during play can be very important. The game is imaginary but the feelings it generates are real. I recently lost a character at the table, and the sadness I felt was wholly real. That person was gone. Forever. That they entirely lived in my head and at the game table was irrelevant.[/i][/i][/i][/i] [/QUOTE]
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