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The Best Thing from 4E
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<blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 6561281" data-attributes="member: 43019"><p>Errm, this is actually just as wrong.</p><p></p><p>There is an actual mathematical problem in 4e, especially when you also factor in that higher level groups tend to face a higher range of opponents.</p><p></p><p>Part of that problem is that PCs fall somewhat behind, at higher levels, without extensive effort.This is particularly noteworthy in parties that don't focus on certain sets of powers that alter defenses or attacks. Extensive playtests showed the results were grim (one might even say grindy) for groups that neglected their accuracy, sometimes through choice of class rather than strictly power or tactical selection (Sentinel Druid vs Warlord, for instance).</p><p></p><p>Part of that problem is also that powers which add/subtract 5 or Stat to a d20 roll (let's say, attack here) completely throw the math off. And then, worse, also invariably stack. Cause maybe the system can withstand one +-5, sure, but +-15 or more? d20 only has so many sides. Worse, the folks who know about this most certainly took expertise, so hitting "all the time" becomes a standard event.</p><p></p><p>So, a typical low epic godhunt might start with "I need 20s to hit" and two characters later go "Well, with his +9 to hit for a round, and her -9 to defenses for a round, I now hit on 2s. Guess we better go through all 1200 hp in one round, guys." - Another group might look at that and go "Well, guess this is going to be a really damn slow and boring 8 hour combat."</p><p></p><p>Epic 4e is really malfed up by powers like Valorous Charge and Mantle of Unity, which are encounter powers (read: the party can figure out ways to do this 2-3 rounds every encounter), which make PCs effectively unhittable. It's similarly hindered by things that grossly alter ability to hit in either direction like the Warchanter's AP benefit.</p><p></p><p>There's a reason why the pendulum swung so sharply towards Bounded Accuracy in 5E.</p><p></p><p>Anyhow - there honestly is a math problem*. Expertise is not the fix for it, but it could have been _part_ of the fix for it.</p><p></p><p>* At least based on the # of tables of Epic 4e I played, DMed, managed the playtest data for, and saw the convention results for - which is many hundreds of tables.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="keterys, post: 6561281, member: 43019"] Errm, this is actually just as wrong. There is an actual mathematical problem in 4e, especially when you also factor in that higher level groups tend to face a higher range of opponents. Part of that problem is that PCs fall somewhat behind, at higher levels, without extensive effort.This is particularly noteworthy in parties that don't focus on certain sets of powers that alter defenses or attacks. Extensive playtests showed the results were grim (one might even say grindy) for groups that neglected their accuracy, sometimes through choice of class rather than strictly power or tactical selection (Sentinel Druid vs Warlord, for instance). Part of that problem is also that powers which add/subtract 5 or Stat to a d20 roll (let's say, attack here) completely throw the math off. And then, worse, also invariably stack. Cause maybe the system can withstand one +-5, sure, but +-15 or more? d20 only has so many sides. Worse, the folks who know about this most certainly took expertise, so hitting "all the time" becomes a standard event. So, a typical low epic godhunt might start with "I need 20s to hit" and two characters later go "Well, with his +9 to hit for a round, and her -9 to defenses for a round, I now hit on 2s. Guess we better go through all 1200 hp in one round, guys." - Another group might look at that and go "Well, guess this is going to be a really damn slow and boring 8 hour combat." Epic 4e is really malfed up by powers like Valorous Charge and Mantle of Unity, which are encounter powers (read: the party can figure out ways to do this 2-3 rounds every encounter), which make PCs effectively unhittable. It's similarly hindered by things that grossly alter ability to hit in either direction like the Warchanter's AP benefit. There's a reason why the pendulum swung so sharply towards Bounded Accuracy in 5E. Anyhow - there honestly is a math problem*. Expertise is not the fix for it, but it could have been _part_ of the fix for it. * At least based on the # of tables of Epic 4e I played, DMed, managed the playtest data for, and saw the convention results for - which is many hundreds of tables. [/QUOTE]
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