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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6561484" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, we differ in at least how we perceive this. I don't think of this as what people are talking about when the say "4e has a math problem." IME they were talking about the fact that monster defenses outstrip PC attack bonuses by about 4 points over the course of 30 levels (and conversely there is a more complex but somewhat similar shift in PC defenses vs monster attack bonus in favor of monsters). AFAICT this is ALL that Weapon Expertise and its ilk were ever intended to 'fix'. </p><p></p><p>My EXPERIENCE with Epic 4e is that the nature of play simply changes. The mechanics of hitting things gets very easy overall. It gets to be more about action economy and synergy so that the characters achieve their alpha strike properly and then can manage the following rounds.</p><p></p><p>I agree with you however that in 4e achieving the standard of average play with your characters at high levels meant either sticking to very clear build patterns or following some very formulaic and tedious procedures. I think what worked well at low levels as a team-focused system tends to become a series of gimmicks at higher levels. However, as Pemerton's and other people's play experiences show, players can generally handle it and its a manageable thing. </p><p></p><p>Yes it is easy to see how 5e is partly a reaction to intricate character builds in general, the problem really is that 5e characters just play the same at all levels and there's little of the synergy that 4e has. Nor are the characters very heroic really. Its a shade better than 2e, maybe, but it cannot come close to delivering 4e's style of play. The overall style of play of 4e IS the 'best thing', you cannot however just take pieces of 4e elements and say which is best, the whole game, when approached properly, is just unique and really fun, even at level 30.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6561484, member: 82106"] Yeah, we differ in at least how we perceive this. I don't think of this as what people are talking about when the say "4e has a math problem." IME they were talking about the fact that monster defenses outstrip PC attack bonuses by about 4 points over the course of 30 levels (and conversely there is a more complex but somewhat similar shift in PC defenses vs monster attack bonus in favor of monsters). AFAICT this is ALL that Weapon Expertise and its ilk were ever intended to 'fix'. My EXPERIENCE with Epic 4e is that the nature of play simply changes. The mechanics of hitting things gets very easy overall. It gets to be more about action economy and synergy so that the characters achieve their alpha strike properly and then can manage the following rounds. I agree with you however that in 4e achieving the standard of average play with your characters at high levels meant either sticking to very clear build patterns or following some very formulaic and tedious procedures. I think what worked well at low levels as a team-focused system tends to become a series of gimmicks at higher levels. However, as Pemerton's and other people's play experiences show, players can generally handle it and its a manageable thing. Yes it is easy to see how 5e is partly a reaction to intricate character builds in general, the problem really is that 5e characters just play the same at all levels and there's little of the synergy that 4e has. Nor are the characters very heroic really. Its a shade better than 2e, maybe, but it cannot come close to delivering 4e's style of play. The overall style of play of 4e IS the 'best thing', you cannot however just take pieces of 4e elements and say which is best, the whole game, when approached properly, is just unique and really fun, even at level 30. [/QUOTE]
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