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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6564137" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>It seems unlikely that you're wrong. I think you might be missing something - or maybe two things.</p><p></p><p>The first is that you might be missing certain experiences. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s comments resonate with me very strongly, as they do for [MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION] - including the description of the table atmosphere that accompanies illusionist GMing. It's something I absolutely associated with 90s RPGing, and with White Wolf and 2nd ed AD&D both as systems, and player cultures built up around those systems. I can see it, too, in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB, which is full of examples of PCs failing (but the players still having fun), of statements subordinating the players' agency to the referee's judgment, etc.</p><p></p><p>If you don't have those experiences from that time then the comments may not speak to you.</p><p></p><p>I think the second thing that you might be missing - but maybe not, because perhaps it is in play in your brother's GMing that you describe - is what, for someone like [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] (I think) or me (I know), is at the core of illusionist GMing. It is not GM ad hoc rulings around DCs or damage in the 4e style. It is GM manipulation of the <em>fiction</em> in order to force outcomes. If this is what someone cares about, then a system of rigid DCs (such as 3E) doesn't matter, because the referee can just stipulate a fictional context which makes success impossible. Or can call for new checks, and new checks, until failure happens (in a combat context, this can be unlimited waves of foes; in a non-combat context this is a lack of what [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] often calls "closed scene resolution").</p><p></p><p>4e's transparency is in relation to these elements: closed scene resolution (via skill challenges for non-combat, and via transparent encounter building guidelines for combat), "subjective" DCs which are (at least in principle, and in my experience reasonably in practice) correlated to the feasible range of PC skill bonuses, and the like.</p><p></p><p>At least, that's my take.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6564137, member: 42582"] It seems unlikely that you're wrong. I think you might be missing something - or maybe two things. The first is that you might be missing certain experiences. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s comments resonate with me very strongly, as they do for [MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION] - including the description of the table atmosphere that accompanies illusionist GMing. It's something I absolutely associated with 90s RPGing, and with White Wolf and 2nd ed AD&D both as systems, and player cultures built up around those systems. I can see it, too, in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB, which is full of examples of PCs failing (but the players still having fun), of statements subordinating the players' agency to the referee's judgment, etc. If you don't have those experiences from that time then the comments may not speak to you. I think the second thing that you might be missing - but maybe not, because perhaps it is in play in your brother's GMing that you describe - is what, for someone like [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] (I think) or me (I know), is at the core of illusionist GMing. It is not GM ad hoc rulings around DCs or damage in the 4e style. It is GM manipulation of the [I]fiction[/I] in order to force outcomes. If this is what someone cares about, then a system of rigid DCs (such as 3E) doesn't matter, because the referee can just stipulate a fictional context which makes success impossible. Or can call for new checks, and new checks, until failure happens (in a combat context, this can be unlimited waves of foes; in a non-combat context this is a lack of what [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] often calls "closed scene resolution"). 4e's transparency is in relation to these elements: closed scene resolution (via skill challenges for non-combat, and via transparent encounter building guidelines for combat), "subjective" DCs which are (at least in principle, and in my experience reasonably in practice) correlated to the feasible range of PC skill bonuses, and the like. At least, that's my take. [/QUOTE]
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