Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Best Thing from 4E
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6564862" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>I'll chime in to agree that 4E isn't at its best with sandbox play, but the solution already mentioned by [MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] of scaling solo - elite - standard - minion and concatenating encounters (effectively thinking of encounter areas having a "level" that describes the density of XP with encounter space - and make higher level encounters take more space) can work tolerably well. I have also been experimenting with "swarms" or mobs of lower level creatures at higher levels. I even think that reasonable battle scenarios should be possible with units of troops having damaging auras and Area and Close Burst attacks with their weapons; character "leaders" could even "ride" these swarms using the rules for Mounts with the odd tweak.</p><p></p><p>On the 'stunts' being "player empowering", I have three thoughts:</p><p></p><p>a) The way 4E works is revolutionary in D&D terms, but in the context of the myriad other systems "out there" I can see space for [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]'s scepticism</p><p></p><p>b) I think the Powers system actually plays a big part in adding to the player-utility of stunts, simply because if using the stunt system is appreciably worse than just using powers, players will use powers</p><p></p><p>c) The inclusion of "Page 42" in the DMG (rather than the PHB) was arguably unfortunate and was possibly a knee-jerk from previous editions. Various ideas (like [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION]'s "stunt cards") to make the system more visible to players can help, and it's quite possible to run the system in a player-controlled way, to some degree. Each level is associated not only with DCs but also with damage (or, more loosely interpreted, "effectiveness"); allowing players to pick a level of stunt to attempt (with increasing DC giving increasing damage) would be quite straightforward.</p><p></p><p>With regard to skill challenges and this latter, I think the concept of an "XP economy" is worth exploring and contemplating. Any sort of challenge to the characters in 4E has a value measured in XP - be it combat, skill rolls or whatever. Exploring ways to exchange and parlay one form of XP gain against another I find a fascinating way to think of scenarios and challenges. Skill challenges to minionise foes, gain (or prevent) surprise and choose starting positions has proven a good way, IME, to develop challenges where the characters can earn their XP in a variety of different ways (and at different costs, in game!)</p><p></p><p>Oh, finally, a suggestion for those GMs tired of picking magic items for 4E - leave them up to the players. In our game the Wizard has had Enchant an Item and such like since around Level 5 (they are now Level 23) and it has worked fine with me giving pretty unlimited capacity per the rulebook. For my next campaign I am seriously thinking of going more radical and just having "Residuum" as a non-perishable resource that the players can mould as they wish (using cash, probably - I will likely make Residuum and cash only exchangeable to a limited degree). I actually think this is a fantastic feature of 4E as originally written; magic items being divided between "magic items" - made with rituals, freely bought and sold, effectively a player resource for <strong>party</strong> character development/design - and "artifacts" - cannot be made or changed by PCs (without huge effort, at least), exist as plot devices, inanimate NPCs or just GM-controlled McGuffins or gimmicks to add spice or be handed out as "rewards". Add in Inherent Bonuses and you can have a game that uses more or less of either type of item as you see fit. Different rules and different functions for two classes of item where in the past we have seen tension and lack of clarity because of these two quite distinct roles played by magic items in the game - genius!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6564862, member: 27160"] I'll chime in to agree that 4E isn't at its best with sandbox play, but the solution already mentioned by [MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] of scaling solo - elite - standard - minion and concatenating encounters (effectively thinking of encounter areas having a "level" that describes the density of XP with encounter space - and make higher level encounters take more space) can work tolerably well. I have also been experimenting with "swarms" or mobs of lower level creatures at higher levels. I even think that reasonable battle scenarios should be possible with units of troops having damaging auras and Area and Close Burst attacks with their weapons; character "leaders" could even "ride" these swarms using the rules for Mounts with the odd tweak. On the 'stunts' being "player empowering", I have three thoughts: a) The way 4E works is revolutionary in D&D terms, but in the context of the myriad other systems "out there" I can see space for [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]'s scepticism b) I think the Powers system actually plays a big part in adding to the player-utility of stunts, simply because if using the stunt system is appreciably worse than just using powers, players will use powers c) The inclusion of "Page 42" in the DMG (rather than the PHB) was arguably unfortunate and was possibly a knee-jerk from previous editions. Various ideas (like [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION]'s "stunt cards") to make the system more visible to players can help, and it's quite possible to run the system in a player-controlled way, to some degree. Each level is associated not only with DCs but also with damage (or, more loosely interpreted, "effectiveness"); allowing players to pick a level of stunt to attempt (with increasing DC giving increasing damage) would be quite straightforward. With regard to skill challenges and this latter, I think the concept of an "XP economy" is worth exploring and contemplating. Any sort of challenge to the characters in 4E has a value measured in XP - be it combat, skill rolls or whatever. Exploring ways to exchange and parlay one form of XP gain against another I find a fascinating way to think of scenarios and challenges. Skill challenges to minionise foes, gain (or prevent) surprise and choose starting positions has proven a good way, IME, to develop challenges where the characters can earn their XP in a variety of different ways (and at different costs, in game!) Oh, finally, a suggestion for those GMs tired of picking magic items for 4E - leave them up to the players. In our game the Wizard has had Enchant an Item and such like since around Level 5 (they are now Level 23) and it has worked fine with me giving pretty unlimited capacity per the rulebook. For my next campaign I am seriously thinking of going more radical and just having "Residuum" as a non-perishable resource that the players can mould as they wish (using cash, probably - I will likely make Residuum and cash only exchangeable to a limited degree). I actually think this is a fantastic feature of 4E as originally written; magic items being divided between "magic items" - made with rituals, freely bought and sold, effectively a player resource for [b]party[/b] character development/design - and "artifacts" - cannot be made or changed by PCs (without huge effort, at least), exist as plot devices, inanimate NPCs or just GM-controlled McGuffins or gimmicks to add spice or be handed out as "rewards". Add in Inherent Bonuses and you can have a game that uses more or less of either type of item as you see fit. Different rules and different functions for two classes of item where in the past we have seen tension and lack of clarity because of these two quite distinct roles played by magic items in the game - genius! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Best Thing from 4E
Top