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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6565208" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The crux of illusionism is the first that you mention: the GM manipulating the game (either the fiction, or more crudely the mechanics eg fudging dice) in order to generate the fictional outcome that s/he wants.</p><p></p><p>The illusion is that the players' choices, mechanical decisions or die rolls, etc actually make a difference to the shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>But illusionism is non-trivially related to the second thing that you mention: if the shared fiction is not going to be changed by the players' metagame desires - eg if they not allowed to make decisions and generate outcomes because they would be fun, or exciting, or whatever - then there are likely to be two options. The first is that the game is rather boring, because the players play their PCs method-actor style, the GM runs the world sim-engine style, and not a lot happens. Some Runequest play can fall into this, and I suspect some Harn play too though my experience there is more limited - [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] might know. In non-fantasy RPGing, some Classic Traveller play has this problem also.</p><p></p><p>The second is that the GM takes steps to make sure that play is interesting, eg by manipulating random encounter rolls to make sure exciting options come up, or by manipulating NPC reaction rolls to make sure that interesting confrontations occur, or by manipulating the fiction to introduce elements that are engaging rather than boring. But these are all time-honoured illusionist techniques! What this second path can tend to lead to is that the GM, in effect, becomes <em>the game</em>, manipulating mechanics and fiction to entertain the players.</p><p></p><p>Done overtly in a sensible context - and I find that Cthulhu is the best for this, because the lack of player protagonism reinforces the experience of being a victim of impersonal forces and the madness of the Great Old Ones - it can be a lot of fun. (But at that point is no longer illusionistic because overt - "participationism" is one word that is used to describe this sort of play.)</p><p></p><p>Done covertly in a context where player protagonism is part of the game's promise - which includes most fantasy RPGing - and for me, at least, it is terrible.</p><p></p><p>Immersion arising in the way that you describe, and illusionism, are closely related.</p><p></p><p>If a player <em>wants</em> to pretend that the fiction is real, and wants not to have any input into what happens in the fiction, then illusionist techniques are just what the doctor ordered. (Again, technically, this would be participationism because the player knows that s/he is not a co-author, and is choosing this different status.)</p><p></p><p>But if your immersion depends upon the giant's stats not being related to its role in the story, then you need the GM not to be making choices about placing giants (rather than, say, orcs) out of a sense of dramatic need. Which goes back to the pure sim, with no metagame, that I described above. And the question then becomes, how to avoid boring games? If no one - GM or player - ever makes a metagame-motivated decision, what differentiates RPGing from a purely mechanical simulation? How does it differ from rolling up some PCs, rolling up a world, feeding all that data into a computer and pressing play?</p><p></p><p>Those questions aren't rhetorical. As I said upthread, the challenge of answering them is what has led many RPG systems which started out with pure sim aspirations to drift, over time, over editions, and in their play cultures, into illusionist play: there is a <em>pretense</em> of pure sim, but in fact the GM is manipulating fiction and/or mechanics to reflect considerations of dramatic need. (Or similar aesthetic concerns.)</p><p></p><p>The way that 4e (or BW, or other strongly anti-illusionist RPGs) generates immersion is quite different. They typically use mechanical devices to align the players' metagame concerns and motivations with their PCs' concerns and motivations so as to produce immersion on the back of emotional investment by the player that correlates to the PC's emotional investment within the fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6565208, member: 42582"] The crux of illusionism is the first that you mention: the GM manipulating the game (either the fiction, or more crudely the mechanics eg fudging dice) in order to generate the fictional outcome that s/he wants. The illusion is that the players' choices, mechanical decisions or die rolls, etc actually make a difference to the shared fiction. But illusionism is non-trivially related to the second thing that you mention: if the shared fiction is not going to be changed by the players' metagame desires - eg if they not allowed to make decisions and generate outcomes because they would be fun, or exciting, or whatever - then there are likely to be two options. The first is that the game is rather boring, because the players play their PCs method-actor style, the GM runs the world sim-engine style, and not a lot happens. Some Runequest play can fall into this, and I suspect some Harn play too though my experience there is more limited - [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] might know. In non-fantasy RPGing, some Classic Traveller play has this problem also. The second is that the GM takes steps to make sure that play is interesting, eg by manipulating random encounter rolls to make sure exciting options come up, or by manipulating NPC reaction rolls to make sure that interesting confrontations occur, or by manipulating the fiction to introduce elements that are engaging rather than boring. But these are all time-honoured illusionist techniques! What this second path can tend to lead to is that the GM, in effect, becomes [I]the game[/I], manipulating mechanics and fiction to entertain the players. Done overtly in a sensible context - and I find that Cthulhu is the best for this, because the lack of player protagonism reinforces the experience of being a victim of impersonal forces and the madness of the Great Old Ones - it can be a lot of fun. (But at that point is no longer illusionistic because overt - "participationism" is one word that is used to describe this sort of play.) Done covertly in a context where player protagonism is part of the game's promise - which includes most fantasy RPGing - and for me, at least, it is terrible. Immersion arising in the way that you describe, and illusionism, are closely related. If a player [I]wants[/I] to pretend that the fiction is real, and wants not to have any input into what happens in the fiction, then illusionist techniques are just what the doctor ordered. (Again, technically, this would be participationism because the player knows that s/he is not a co-author, and is choosing this different status.) But if your immersion depends upon the giant's stats not being related to its role in the story, then you need the GM not to be making choices about placing giants (rather than, say, orcs) out of a sense of dramatic need. Which goes back to the pure sim, with no metagame, that I described above. And the question then becomes, how to avoid boring games? If no one - GM or player - ever makes a metagame-motivated decision, what differentiates RPGing from a purely mechanical simulation? How does it differ from rolling up some PCs, rolling up a world, feeding all that data into a computer and pressing play? Those questions aren't rhetorical. As I said upthread, the challenge of answering them is what has led many RPG systems which started out with pure sim aspirations to drift, over time, over editions, and in their play cultures, into illusionist play: there is a [I]pretense[/I] of pure sim, but in fact the GM is manipulating fiction and/or mechanics to reflect considerations of dramatic need. (Or similar aesthetic concerns.) The way that 4e (or BW, or other strongly anti-illusionist RPGs) generates immersion is quite different. They typically use mechanical devices to align the players' metagame concerns and motivations with their PCs' concerns and motivations so as to produce immersion on the back of emotional investment by the player that correlates to the PC's emotional investment within the fiction. [/QUOTE]
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