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The Best Thing from 4E
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6565898" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, this is huge, and it ties back into what I was saying to [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]. 4e just gives you a LOT more sophisticated tools with which to construct the stage upon which the PCs enact their play. The problem with the highly simulationist mechanically fixed game systems IME was just that they shot you in the foot. As GM you felt like you had 2 choices. You could either let the gears grind on to their dull and inevitable TPK ending (or whatever), or you could 'break the rules'. EVERY breaking of the rules has to be either a collaboration with the players, or it has to be some degree of trespass on the social contract of the game. Given that these same simulationist games, by design, lack meta-game level mechanics to formalize the collaboration option they almost DEMAND some level of 'illusionism'. They don't just drift into it, they cannot exist WITHOUT it. In the best cases this is in the service of better play and a really good DM will work to support and validate the player's choices, but its a hard path to walk. Most games in the AD&D era IME fell into either pandering to the players, or being vehicles for the DM to push his agenda.</p><p></p><p>4e at least makes it easy to do the adjusting and lets everyone focus on the fun part, which are the agendas and characterization/roleplay, etc. I'd be happy to hear about even better tools, and ones that are even more compatible with, for instance, a more sandboxed style of play than 4e focuses on. I think 5e is actually not bad in this respect. It adulterates some mechanical aspects of 4e to its detriment, but its still a long ways ahead of any pre-4e edition in a lot of respects. I'm sorry that it didn't take this agenda further though, which is why I'm not really that interested in 5e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6565898, member: 82106"] Yeah, this is huge, and it ties back into what I was saying to [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]. 4e just gives you a LOT more sophisticated tools with which to construct the stage upon which the PCs enact their play. The problem with the highly simulationist mechanically fixed game systems IME was just that they shot you in the foot. As GM you felt like you had 2 choices. You could either let the gears grind on to their dull and inevitable TPK ending (or whatever), or you could 'break the rules'. EVERY breaking of the rules has to be either a collaboration with the players, or it has to be some degree of trespass on the social contract of the game. Given that these same simulationist games, by design, lack meta-game level mechanics to formalize the collaboration option they almost DEMAND some level of 'illusionism'. They don't just drift into it, they cannot exist WITHOUT it. In the best cases this is in the service of better play and a really good DM will work to support and validate the player's choices, but its a hard path to walk. Most games in the AD&D era IME fell into either pandering to the players, or being vehicles for the DM to push his agenda. 4e at least makes it easy to do the adjusting and lets everyone focus on the fun part, which are the agendas and characterization/roleplay, etc. I'd be happy to hear about even better tools, and ones that are even more compatible with, for instance, a more sandboxed style of play than 4e focuses on. I think 5e is actually not bad in this respect. It adulterates some mechanical aspects of 4e to its detriment, but its still a long ways ahead of any pre-4e edition in a lot of respects. I'm sorry that it didn't take this agenda further though, which is why I'm not really that interested in 5e. [/QUOTE]
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