Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="kenjib" data-source="post: 413221" data-attributes="member: 530"><p>Tangent alert.</p><p></p><p>Are intelligence and chaos inherently opposed? Is not intelligence inherently an ordering of a random universe?</p><p></p><p>Should demons all have been mindless cosmic horrors like the great Azathoth? That would have been pretty cool as it would have made them more different from devils and daemons than they are now (and honesty the differences are really piddly if you think about it).</p><p></p><p>I don't see how a highly intelligent creature would allow the delicate balance of power to erupt into a winner-take-all scenario, since clearly each person's odds of winning are decidedly low, and ultimately completely zero when one considers invasion by highly organized devils, celestials, and others who would subsequently take out the solitary winner.</p><p></p><p>Can a truly pure chaotic non-society exist among intelligent creatures? I don't think so, as it defies personal logic (it's clearly stupid not to work together), and I don't think that demons *can* be as purely chaotic as some people want. It just doesn't work. They would have become extinct ages ago. That's why I argue that demons have to behave the way I've described -- with a web of interreliance based on mutual self-interest. Without some kind of structure like this, however loose, they cease to exist.</p><p></p><p>If I could re-write the D&D cosmology, demons would be mindless Lovecraftian horrors whose mere existance threatens to drive us insane. Even devils and daemons fear their irrational behavior. Devils would be the deal makers who plan their evil manipulations in a cruel and diabolical mockery of congressional politics. Daemons (yuguloths) would be those who believe in ultimate machiavellian power at any cost, living in the web of mutual self-interest I have described before. That would make all three different in an interesting way. As it is now, I think that daemons get kind of squeezed into a spot where there's no role left for them to play.</p><p></p><p>In any case, demons are not just chaotic, they are as evil as they are chaotic. Evil is self interest with no concern for others. At some point, these two impulses must balance against each other. Strict adherence to chaos flies in the face of the nature of evil, as it defies self preservation. Thus, there must be some sense of order among demons. Here is where we all have different interpretations, since this is clearly a problem with a continuum of solutions rather than one specific solution.</p><p></p><p>The key point for me though, is that D&D has always stressed the good-evil axis *much* more strongly than the law-chaos one. Therefore for demons, self-preservation takes precedence over defying the rule of law. They defy law when they can, but only when it does not bring serious harm to them. This means that they must have some level of cooperation.</p><p></p><p>I think the best solution is to consider the difference between law and cooperation. They are not at all the same thing. You can oppose law and support cooperation. That's why I view demons the way I do. They are like hippies gone bad.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kenjib, post: 413221, member: 530"] Tangent alert. Are intelligence and chaos inherently opposed? Is not intelligence inherently an ordering of a random universe? Should demons all have been mindless cosmic horrors like the great Azathoth? That would have been pretty cool as it would have made them more different from devils and daemons than they are now (and honesty the differences are really piddly if you think about it). I don't see how a highly intelligent creature would allow the delicate balance of power to erupt into a winner-take-all scenario, since clearly each person's odds of winning are decidedly low, and ultimately completely zero when one considers invasion by highly organized devils, celestials, and others who would subsequently take out the solitary winner. Can a truly pure chaotic non-society exist among intelligent creatures? I don't think so, as it defies personal logic (it's clearly stupid not to work together), and I don't think that demons *can* be as purely chaotic as some people want. It just doesn't work. They would have become extinct ages ago. That's why I argue that demons have to behave the way I've described -- with a web of interreliance based on mutual self-interest. Without some kind of structure like this, however loose, they cease to exist. If I could re-write the D&D cosmology, demons would be mindless Lovecraftian horrors whose mere existance threatens to drive us insane. Even devils and daemons fear their irrational behavior. Devils would be the deal makers who plan their evil manipulations in a cruel and diabolical mockery of congressional politics. Daemons (yuguloths) would be those who believe in ultimate machiavellian power at any cost, living in the web of mutual self-interest I have described before. That would make all three different in an interesting way. As it is now, I think that daemons get kind of squeezed into a spot where there's no role left for them to play. In any case, demons are not just chaotic, they are as evil as they are chaotic. Evil is self interest with no concern for others. At some point, these two impulses must balance against each other. Strict adherence to chaos flies in the face of the nature of evil, as it defies self preservation. Thus, there must be some sense of order among demons. Here is where we all have different interpretations, since this is clearly a problem with a continuum of solutions rather than one specific solution. The key point for me though, is that D&D has always stressed the good-evil axis *much* more strongly than the law-chaos one. Therefore for demons, self-preservation takes precedence over defying the rule of law. They defy law when they can, but only when it does not bring serious harm to them. This means that they must have some level of cooperation. I think the best solution is to consider the difference between law and cooperation. They are not at all the same thing. You can oppose law and support cooperation. That's why I view demons the way I do. They are like hippies gone bad. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
Top