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<blockquote data-quote="barsoomcore" data-source="post: 413292" data-attributes="member: 812"><p>You imagine there's some sort of league listings? There are billions of demons, are there not? We're not talking about, say, European politics here. We're talking about the endless hordes of the Abyss.</p><p></p><p>The example provided said exactly that -- that Suzy tells Bob she's with Graz'zt. It's drmuncheon's example -- if you don't like it, tell him. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't prove his point.</p><p></p><p>And which of Graz'zt's followers are A) going to care and B) going to know if she's lying or not? Why would they? Caring is only going to make Graz'zt stronger, which isn't going to help their position any -- in fact the stronger Graz'zt gets the less he's going to need their help so they really want to keep him right where he is. And how would they know this isn't some trick of Graz'zt's to flush out their own disloyalties? Or that Graz'zt has some secret deal going with this cutie?</p><p></p><p>The point is that with demons these sorts of things are much more likely than with any human being, and there are no counterbalancing forces of loyalty or love to supply the needed cohesion. All there is is fear, and that is a self-destructive way to run a society. It cannot last, and will eventually succumb as the one most powerful overruns all the others. If he's got eternity in which to do it, he'll manage eventually.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure she'd be more than happy to be asked to perform some errands for Graz'zt. It gives her more chances to cause pain.</p><p></p><p>And I'm saying the protection of a demon is valueless.</p><p></p><p>Only demons never make useful servants.</p><p></p><p>It does if that is your only means of assuring your own survival. </p><p></p><p>Sorry, aren't we talking about the Abyss? The planar representation of pure chaotic evil?</p><p></p><p>I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do?</p><p></p><p>Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun.</p><p></p><p>All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it?</p><p></p><p>And then if you say they aren't necessarily pure chaotic evil it becomes morally difficult to run a game in which the killing of demons is a priori good.</p><p></p><p>That's what I think.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="barsoomcore, post: 413292, member: 812"] You imagine there's some sort of league listings? There are billions of demons, are there not? We're not talking about, say, European politics here. We're talking about the endless hordes of the Abyss. The example provided said exactly that -- that Suzy tells Bob she's with Graz'zt. It's drmuncheon's example -- if you don't like it, tell him. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't prove his point. And which of Graz'zt's followers are A) going to care and B) going to know if she's lying or not? Why would they? Caring is only going to make Graz'zt stronger, which isn't going to help their position any -- in fact the stronger Graz'zt gets the less he's going to need their help so they really want to keep him right where he is. And how would they know this isn't some trick of Graz'zt's to flush out their own disloyalties? Or that Graz'zt has some secret deal going with this cutie? The point is that with demons these sorts of things are much more likely than with any human being, and there are no counterbalancing forces of loyalty or love to supply the needed cohesion. All there is is fear, and that is a self-destructive way to run a society. It cannot last, and will eventually succumb as the one most powerful overruns all the others. If he's got eternity in which to do it, he'll manage eventually. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to be asked to perform some errands for Graz'zt. It gives her more chances to cause pain. And I'm saying the protection of a demon is valueless. Only demons never make useful servants. It does if that is your only means of assuring your own survival. Sorry, aren't we talking about the Abyss? The planar representation of pure chaotic evil? I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do? Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun. All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it? And then if you say they aren't necessarily pure chaotic evil it becomes morally difficult to run a game in which the killing of demons is a priori good. That's what I think. [/QUOTE]
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