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<blockquote data-quote="drnuncheon" data-source="post: 413440" data-attributes="member: 96"><p>But Graz'zt's relative weakness is <strong>not</strong> an advantage if taking him out leaves Demogorgon vulnerable to Orcus or another challenger.</p><p></p><p>You are perfectly right in that if it were just a two-party conflict (Demogorgon and Graz'zt), then Demogorgon would walk all over Graz'zt as soon as he thought he had the upper hand.</p><p></p><p>But Demogorgon doesn't exist with only Graz'zt. There's Orcus to worry about too. He has to think, "Gee, I <em>could</em> stomp Graz'zt, but then Orcus would hit me with everything he's got, and he'd wind up in charge. No way am I letting that fat loser get the best of me! I'll leave six-finger for later."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It pays to be wary of who you claim allegiance to. Word <em>will</em> get around, and Graz'zt might not be happy if someone was 'using' him for protection that wasn't due them.</p><p></p><p>Let's put it this way...if you were walking around the bad part of LA, would you claim to be a Crip if you weren't? There's danger there, too, and plenty of it. Suzy might lie about it, but she'd better high-tail herself to a demon lord and <em>get</em> some protection, or else someone's going to figure out that she isn't really under anyone's umbrella at all. Maybe Graz'zt's homies have a secret handshake or something. Maybe he brands them, I dunno.</p><p></p><p>See, your 'become safe by killing everyone else in the Abyss' idea might seem like the best path at first - until you realize that these demons, being not-stupid, are going to realize that they don't have a chance of doing that. So they do the next best thing - they team up with someone bigger than them and try to make themselves useful to the big guy so that they don't get squashed by soneone else.</p><p></p><p>They're not doing it out of loyalty or a desire for order or any of the reasons anyone else might do it - they're doing it out of a desire for <em>survival</em>. Getting yourself killed is definitely <em>not</em> chaotic.</p><p></p><p>So why does a demon lord put up with weaker demons? Why does he trust them? Because they fear him. He can kick their tuckuses. They are not going to betray him on a whim, because they are not stupid. The succubus isn't going to say "I will not betray Graz'zt because he is my master" or "because he is good to me", she'll say "I am not going to betray Graz'zt because what it gets me isn't worth it." And yeah, if she gets a better deal, she'll be gone. But she'd better make damn sure it's a better deal.</p><p></p><p>It's all about survival. In a Chaotic Evil society, if you are not one of the powerful, then you are either attached to one of the powerful, or you are a target. A demon who could survive without the protection of someone more powerful would have to be either incredibly powerful, or very crafty - very crafty indeed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You know, the only one of those I definitely agree with is the compassion and evil opposition. If creativity and law are opposed, then how come Shakespeare's sonnets equal or surpass any free verse that I've seen? If self-interest and good are opposed, where does that leave the principle of enlightened self-interest? Intelligence and chaos opposed - kenjib seems to be confusing the 'Chaos' of alignments with the 'chaos' of randomness. 'Chaos' in alignments is 'individualism', not randomness.</p><p></p><p>And for the record, I think that the really powerful Lovecraftian horrors - Azathoth, the Elder Gods and the like - are for the most part True Neutral, for the same reasons that animals and vermin are. They're simply on such a different scale that human morality means nothing to them. If humans are not evil for accidentally stepping on helpless ants, how can Azathoth be evil for doing the same?</p><p></p><p>(Nyarlathotep, I'll grant you. He's the kid in the back yard with the magnifying glass on a sunny day.)</p><p></p><p>J</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="drnuncheon, post: 413440, member: 96"] But Graz'zt's relative weakness is [b]not[/b] an advantage if taking him out leaves Demogorgon vulnerable to Orcus or another challenger. You are perfectly right in that if it were just a two-party conflict (Demogorgon and Graz'zt), then Demogorgon would walk all over Graz'zt as soon as he thought he had the upper hand. But Demogorgon doesn't exist with only Graz'zt. There's Orcus to worry about too. He has to think, "Gee, I [i]could[/i] stomp Graz'zt, but then Orcus would hit me with everything he's got, and he'd wind up in charge. No way am I letting that fat loser get the best of me! I'll leave six-finger for later." It pays to be wary of who you claim allegiance to. Word [i]will[/i] get around, and Graz'zt might not be happy if someone was 'using' him for protection that wasn't due them. Let's put it this way...if you were walking around the bad part of LA, would you claim to be a Crip if you weren't? There's danger there, too, and plenty of it. Suzy might lie about it, but she'd better high-tail herself to a demon lord and [i]get[/i] some protection, or else someone's going to figure out that she isn't really under anyone's umbrella at all. Maybe Graz'zt's homies have a secret handshake or something. Maybe he brands them, I dunno. See, your 'become safe by killing everyone else in the Abyss' idea might seem like the best path at first - until you realize that these demons, being not-stupid, are going to realize that they don't have a chance of doing that. So they do the next best thing - they team up with someone bigger than them and try to make themselves useful to the big guy so that they don't get squashed by soneone else. They're not doing it out of loyalty or a desire for order or any of the reasons anyone else might do it - they're doing it out of a desire for [i]survival[/i]. Getting yourself killed is definitely [i]not[/i] chaotic. So why does a demon lord put up with weaker demons? Why does he trust them? Because they fear him. He can kick their tuckuses. They are not going to betray him on a whim, because they are not stupid. The succubus isn't going to say "I will not betray Graz'zt because he is my master" or "because he is good to me", she'll say "I am not going to betray Graz'zt because what it gets me isn't worth it." And yeah, if she gets a better deal, she'll be gone. But she'd better make damn sure it's a better deal. It's all about survival. In a Chaotic Evil society, if you are not one of the powerful, then you are either attached to one of the powerful, or you are a target. A demon who could survive without the protection of someone more powerful would have to be either incredibly powerful, or very crafty - very crafty indeed. You know, the only one of those I definitely agree with is the compassion and evil opposition. If creativity and law are opposed, then how come Shakespeare's sonnets equal or surpass any free verse that I've seen? If self-interest and good are opposed, where does that leave the principle of enlightened self-interest? Intelligence and chaos opposed - kenjib seems to be confusing the 'Chaos' of alignments with the 'chaos' of randomness. 'Chaos' in alignments is 'individualism', not randomness. And for the record, I think that the really powerful Lovecraftian horrors - Azathoth, the Elder Gods and the like - are for the most part True Neutral, for the same reasons that animals and vermin are. They're simply on such a different scale that human morality means nothing to them. If humans are not evil for accidentally stepping on helpless ants, how can Azathoth be evil for doing the same? (Nyarlathotep, I'll grant you. He's the kid in the back yard with the magnifying glass on a sunny day.) J [/QUOTE]
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