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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 6413101" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>This is worth re-emphasizing. The player doesn't seem to be open to any other solution. To me, if a player isn't willing to entertain any of the other possible solutions (probably dozens of which have been suggested in this thread by now), he is being unreasonable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. </p><p></p><p>How is the DM being deceitful when she's clearly said, "Here's how you can do it, but it's not going to be quick or easy or maybe ever"? And what, she should ban the pc from collecting eyes to save him time or something? That's absurd. The pc is run by the player, not the DM, and doesn't have complete information about everything in the world. He needs to find out by exploring and doing, and there's nothing deceptive- or wrong- about letting him choose his own goals, even if they can't be attained. </p><p></p><p>Would you argue the same way if the pc's desire was for a way to turn into an ancient dragon? The DM must accommodate this desire or say, from the beginning, "No way, never, no how"?</p><p></p><p>I don't know about you, but in my campaign, if the pcs set a goal that they can't achieve, that's fine. They might surprise me and do the impossible some day via their resourcefulness and amazing creativity. But I feel no need to bend to make it happen if it's not there, not possible or whatever other not you choose.</p><p></p><p>As an example, in my game, dragon flesh and blood is extremely toxic if consumed. It will kill you, pretty much for sure, and everyone knows it. Back in the 2e days, one of my players made an awl pike-wielding fighter whose quest was to drink the blood of a dragon. The player told me that the character was sure that he could somehow survive and become immortal from it. I told the player that drinking dragon's blood was almost certain death.</p><p></p><p>When the party killed a dragon, the character in question drank some of its blood and died. Should I have changed major in-game lore to accommodate a player who stubbornly insisted on doing the equivalent of sticking his head in a raging inferno? Nope. </p><p></p><p>The darkvision thing is similar. "Go ahead and do what you want, I'll be shrugging my shoulders over here." The DM is not obligated to rewire the game to accommodate someone who stubbornly refused to face the reality of his character building choices. You want darkvision? Take a race that has it. I think the DM in this instance, from the sounds of things, was perfectly clear, and the pc is insisting on trying to force the DM's hand through sheer stubbornness. Now, I'm all for the pc pursuing their goals in game, and maybe there's a way to fulfill that goal. But maybe not. And it's the DM, not the player, who ultimately decides what goes in her game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 6413101, member: 1210"] This is worth re-emphasizing. The player doesn't seem to be open to any other solution. To me, if a player isn't willing to entertain any of the other possible solutions (probably dozens of which have been suggested in this thread by now), he is being unreasonable. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. How is the DM being deceitful when she's clearly said, "Here's how you can do it, but it's not going to be quick or easy or maybe ever"? And what, she should ban the pc from collecting eyes to save him time or something? That's absurd. The pc is run by the player, not the DM, and doesn't have complete information about everything in the world. He needs to find out by exploring and doing, and there's nothing deceptive- or wrong- about letting him choose his own goals, even if they can't be attained. Would you argue the same way if the pc's desire was for a way to turn into an ancient dragon? The DM must accommodate this desire or say, from the beginning, "No way, never, no how"? I don't know about you, but in my campaign, if the pcs set a goal that they can't achieve, that's fine. They might surprise me and do the impossible some day via their resourcefulness and amazing creativity. But I feel no need to bend to make it happen if it's not there, not possible or whatever other not you choose. As an example, in my game, dragon flesh and blood is extremely toxic if consumed. It will kill you, pretty much for sure, and everyone knows it. Back in the 2e days, one of my players made an awl pike-wielding fighter whose quest was to drink the blood of a dragon. The player told me that the character was sure that he could somehow survive and become immortal from it. I told the player that drinking dragon's blood was almost certain death. When the party killed a dragon, the character in question drank some of its blood and died. Should I have changed major in-game lore to accommodate a player who stubbornly insisted on doing the equivalent of sticking his head in a raging inferno? Nope. The darkvision thing is similar. "Go ahead and do what you want, I'll be shrugging my shoulders over here." The DM is not obligated to rewire the game to accommodate someone who stubbornly refused to face the reality of his character building choices. You want darkvision? Take a race that has it. I think the DM in this instance, from the sounds of things, was perfectly clear, and the pc is insisting on trying to force the DM's hand through sheer stubbornness. Now, I'm all for the pc pursuing their goals in game, and maybe there's a way to fulfill that goal. But maybe not. And it's the DM, not the player, who ultimately decides what goes in her game. [/QUOTE]
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