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The danger of the Three Pillars of D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5818870" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think I'll skip any attempt at abstract definition, and move straight to your example.</p><p></p><p>Except maybe to say that "meaningful" means at a minimum that (i) it would have made a significant difference to the play had the PC not been there (ie mere kibbitzing and advice from the player doesn't count), and (ii) this is not just because, had the PC not been there, the other PCs would not have had to carry his/her sorry behind!</p><p> </p><p>Maybe. I guess I want to know a bit more.</p><p></p><p>How often can the thief backstab? And what is the projected length of the typical fight? Does getting in backstab require interesting play, that is <em>different</em> from the interesting play that is needed to make a wizard or a fighter perform?</p><p></p><p>As to staying effectiveness - are we talking hit points? AC? mobility? AD&D has at least these three elements of staying power, and 3E/4e add more, like damage reduction and healing capabilities. Provided that a thief uses a different means to staying compared to a fighter - and something which is different not just at the level of colour ("I wear <em>leather</em> armour!") but is different in some mechanically signficant ways - because they require different play - then we can have meaningfulness without overlap.</p><p></p><p>To give concrete examples: I think that a Basic D&D or 1st ed AD&D thief is either at the very bottom end of "able to contribute meaningfully to combat", or falls below the threshold. A bit depends on the individual GM - how hard is moving silently or hiding with that GM, and how generous is s/he with invisibility items? Also, in Basic a thief can use a two-handed sword, and may well have a STR bonus (starts at 13 rather than 16) and until 4th level has the same THACO as a fighter. So (other than the d4 hit points) a Basic thief is probably more meaningful on the offensive front than an AD&D one. (At higher levels, AD&D thieves get the benefit of bigger backstab multipliers.)</p><p></p><p>But neither sort of thief has the sort of mobility that would make for staying power. I think that is the biggest issue for classic D&D thieves.</p><p></p><p>But this then leads into other aspects of design. For example, mobility as a form of staying power that plays significantly differently from hit points will require an action resolution system that makes movement signficant. That need not be a grid-and-minis approach (Burning Wheel makes movement matter, for example, without grid-and-minis) but it is likely to be a module rather than core. Meaning that perhaps to get all PCs onto all three pillars we have to go beyond the core.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5818870, member: 42582"] I think I'll skip any attempt at abstract definition, and move straight to your example. Except maybe to say that "meaningful" means at a minimum that (i) it would have made a significant difference to the play had the PC not been there (ie mere kibbitzing and advice from the player doesn't count), and (ii) this is not just because, had the PC not been there, the other PCs would not have had to carry his/her sorry behind! Maybe. I guess I want to know a bit more. How often can the thief backstab? And what is the projected length of the typical fight? Does getting in backstab require interesting play, that is [I]different[/I] from the interesting play that is needed to make a wizard or a fighter perform? As to staying effectiveness - are we talking hit points? AC? mobility? AD&D has at least these three elements of staying power, and 3E/4e add more, like damage reduction and healing capabilities. Provided that a thief uses a different means to staying compared to a fighter - and something which is different not just at the level of colour ("I wear [I]leather[/I] armour!") but is different in some mechanically signficant ways - because they require different play - then we can have meaningfulness without overlap. To give concrete examples: I think that a Basic D&D or 1st ed AD&D thief is either at the very bottom end of "able to contribute meaningfully to combat", or falls below the threshold. A bit depends on the individual GM - how hard is moving silently or hiding with that GM, and how generous is s/he with invisibility items? Also, in Basic a thief can use a two-handed sword, and may well have a STR bonus (starts at 13 rather than 16) and until 4th level has the same THACO as a fighter. So (other than the d4 hit points) a Basic thief is probably more meaningful on the offensive front than an AD&D one. (At higher levels, AD&D thieves get the benefit of bigger backstab multipliers.) But neither sort of thief has the sort of mobility that would make for staying power. I think that is the biggest issue for classic D&D thieves. But this then leads into other aspects of design. For example, mobility as a form of staying power that plays significantly differently from hit points will require an action resolution system that makes movement signficant. That need not be a grid-and-minis approach (Burning Wheel makes movement matter, for example, without grid-and-minis) but it is likely to be a module rather than core. Meaning that perhaps to get all PCs onto all three pillars we have to go beyond the core. [/QUOTE]
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