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The double standard for magical and mundane abilities
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6353445" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The point [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] is making is that many parts of D&D magic <em>are</em> explained. For instance, the wizard has to copy spell formulae into his/her spellbook. And then has to read those formulae. And then, at least in AD&D (I'm not as sure about 5e) has to impress the mystic formulae upon his/her mind. Then, when casting, s/he has to speak certain words perfectly, and wiggle his/her fingers in just the right way, and pull the right material component out of his/her pouch at the right time.</p><p></p><p>If a player wants his/her bard to sing a song perfectly, a Perform check must be made. Why does the player of a wizard character not have to make a Perform check to recite the words of the spell properly?</p><p></p><p>If a player wants his/her thief to do a card trick without fumbling, a Sleight of Hand check mut be made. Why does the player of a wizard not have to make some sort of DEX check to wiggle his/her fingers properly, or to pull the right component out of the spell component pouch?</p><p></p><p>To remember facts requires an INT check. So why does forcing a spell formula into the brain of the caster not require an INT check also? Why does transcribing a spell into a spell book not require an INT check to avoid confusion/mistranslation (as a real-life teacher of complicated material, I can say that transcription by students is far from infallible), or a DEX check to get the copying right (I know more than one person who can't read his/her own handwriting)?</p><p></p><p>And flipping this around: if we are happy with a mechanical system that ignores the chances of a wizard mucking these things up, and that allows auto-success whenever the player makes the action declaration "I'm transcribing a spell", "I'm memorising a spell", "I'm casting a spell", then what is wrong with a system that similarly ignores the chance of a fighter or rogue mucking things up when the player declares "I'm cutting down that goblin" or "I'm hiding behind that tree/ogre/person." (DoaM would be an example of such a system. Some of the 4e powers for rogues that let the turn invisible etc are similar such examples. Others could probably be invented without much trouble.)</p><p></p><p>This is why I like Rolemaster (which puts the magic-user on the same mchanical footing as the rogue/fighter, needing to roll to cast), and 4e (which puts the rogue/fighter on the same mechanical footing as the magic-user, having a range of auto-success abilities). And why I find 3E not very appealing, because of all the versions of D&D I think it has one of the starkest disparities across the two categories of character.</p><p></p><p>My own view is that "physics" is not all the helpful as a pathway into the issue. I prefer genre.</p><p></p><p>When I think of REH's Conan, for example,I don't think of a world governed by different physical laws: REH's Hyobrea is our own Earth. Likewise for Marvel Comics's Punisher: the Marvel Universe is our own world, and so The Punisher is not governed by physical laws any different from ours.</p><p></p><p>Rather, Conan and The Punisher have capabilities that are to be understood within the context of the pulp/super-hero genre. Part of this is that events which would be near-miraculous or wildly coincidental in the real world - eg falling three stories and walking away, or not being defeated in a solo fight against a dozen enemies - are recurrent events for these genre heroes. If we want the game to model that, we don't need to change the physics; we need to change the odds. That is, PC heroes aren't held to the odds that govern the ordinary processes of the gameworld. They are reliably lucky. This is what a power system (4e) or a Fate Point system (Conan d20, HARP, Burning Wheel, and many other systems) is meant to ensure.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6353445, member: 42582"] The point [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] is making is that many parts of D&D magic [I]are[/I] explained. For instance, the wizard has to copy spell formulae into his/her spellbook. And then has to read those formulae. And then, at least in AD&D (I'm not as sure about 5e) has to impress the mystic formulae upon his/her mind. Then, when casting, s/he has to speak certain words perfectly, and wiggle his/her fingers in just the right way, and pull the right material component out of his/her pouch at the right time. If a player wants his/her bard to sing a song perfectly, a Perform check must be made. Why does the player of a wizard character not have to make a Perform check to recite the words of the spell properly? If a player wants his/her thief to do a card trick without fumbling, a Sleight of Hand check mut be made. Why does the player of a wizard not have to make some sort of DEX check to wiggle his/her fingers properly, or to pull the right component out of the spell component pouch? To remember facts requires an INT check. So why does forcing a spell formula into the brain of the caster not require an INT check also? Why does transcribing a spell into a spell book not require an INT check to avoid confusion/mistranslation (as a real-life teacher of complicated material, I can say that transcription by students is far from infallible), or a DEX check to get the copying right (I know more than one person who can't read his/her own handwriting)? And flipping this around: if we are happy with a mechanical system that ignores the chances of a wizard mucking these things up, and that allows auto-success whenever the player makes the action declaration "I'm transcribing a spell", "I'm memorising a spell", "I'm casting a spell", then what is wrong with a system that similarly ignores the chance of a fighter or rogue mucking things up when the player declares "I'm cutting down that goblin" or "I'm hiding behind that tree/ogre/person." (DoaM would be an example of such a system. Some of the 4e powers for rogues that let the turn invisible etc are similar such examples. Others could probably be invented without much trouble.) This is why I like Rolemaster (which puts the magic-user on the same mchanical footing as the rogue/fighter, needing to roll to cast), and 4e (which puts the rogue/fighter on the same mechanical footing as the magic-user, having a range of auto-success abilities). And why I find 3E not very appealing, because of all the versions of D&D I think it has one of the starkest disparities across the two categories of character. My own view is that "physics" is not all the helpful as a pathway into the issue. I prefer genre. When I think of REH's Conan, for example,I don't think of a world governed by different physical laws: REH's Hyobrea is our own Earth. Likewise for Marvel Comics's Punisher: the Marvel Universe is our own world, and so The Punisher is not governed by physical laws any different from ours. Rather, Conan and The Punisher have capabilities that are to be understood within the context of the pulp/super-hero genre. Part of this is that events which would be near-miraculous or wildly coincidental in the real world - eg falling three stories and walking away, or not being defeated in a solo fight against a dozen enemies - are recurrent events for these genre heroes. If we want the game to model that, we don't need to change the physics; we need to change the odds. That is, PC heroes aren't held to the odds that govern the ordinary processes of the gameworld. They are reliably lucky. This is what a power system (4e) or a Fate Point system (Conan d20, HARP, Burning Wheel, and many other systems) is meant to ensure. [/QUOTE]
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