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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7694103" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>The total number may not have grown with any edition after 1e (indeed, they've doubtless shrunk slowly), but that doesn't mean there weren't new players partially replacing the loss. The sense I got was that 4e drew in new players moreso than other eds, it just repelled old ones in nearly equal measure. 5e comes out and most 4e players, old & new, neatly transition to it, along with those longtime D&Ders who didn't defect to PF, and returning classic-D&D fans who haven't played since the 20th century, and you have huge success. </p><p></p><p>One thing I think we didn't realize was that 3.x/PF wasn't a monolithic group. PF fans may be solidly committed, but maybe 3.5 fans who never went as far as converting to PF were more open to 5e?</p><p></p><p>I think more lapsed. That's really who it's aimed at, it's familiar to returning players in a way that 3.x and 4e weren't. </p><p></p><p>In addition, the small number of books on the shelf have to be less intimidating to would-be new players than any time since the fad years. 2e, 3e, & 4e all had a huge number of books sitting on the shelf. That could get more new players to try it, but there's still the problem of retaining them, something 5e's focus on classic feel doesn't help with.</p><p></p><p>Which is how it's always been with D&D. It's the gateway to the hobby. It's mostly been a fairly selective gateway that turns a lot of potential new players away. 5e doesn't much change that.</p><p></p><p>PF is a callback to 3.5, it's appeal is how much it's mechanically like 3.5, that's it. 5e is a callback to the classic game, it's appeal is how much it feels like AD&D or old-school D&D, and that's about it. The big difference is that the pool of rabid 3.5 fans who absolutely refuse to change has already been largely captured by PF (and the ones that haven't been may also be drawn to 5e), while the pool of lapsed one-time D&D fans who played back when it was a fad is still pretty huge.</p><p></p><p>What would it even be? Their fanbase is united by sunk system mastery investment and adamant rejection of change? How do you build on that?</p><p></p><p>Even slowly net-loosing fans, as is probably the case, isn't fatal, you can spin out a product line like that for decades and make plenty of money, while trying to get something else going. The thing is, Paizo isn't just PF, they're also a company that made very popular adventures for D&D, they could get back into that pretty seamlessly with D&D having come back to the OGL. First include 5e stats in the back of new PF Adventures. Eventually swap it around with PF stats in the back. </p><p></p><p>Pathfinder may have passed it's peak, but Paizo still has lots of opportunity.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7694103, member: 996"] The total number may not have grown with any edition after 1e (indeed, they've doubtless shrunk slowly), but that doesn't mean there weren't new players partially replacing the loss. The sense I got was that 4e drew in new players moreso than other eds, it just repelled old ones in nearly equal measure. 5e comes out and most 4e players, old & new, neatly transition to it, along with those longtime D&Ders who didn't defect to PF, and returning classic-D&D fans who haven't played since the 20th century, and you have huge success. One thing I think we didn't realize was that 3.x/PF wasn't a monolithic group. PF fans may be solidly committed, but maybe 3.5 fans who never went as far as converting to PF were more open to 5e? I think more lapsed. That's really who it's aimed at, it's familiar to returning players in a way that 3.x and 4e weren't. In addition, the small number of books on the shelf have to be less intimidating to would-be new players than any time since the fad years. 2e, 3e, & 4e all had a huge number of books sitting on the shelf. That could get more new players to try it, but there's still the problem of retaining them, something 5e's focus on classic feel doesn't help with. Which is how it's always been with D&D. It's the gateway to the hobby. It's mostly been a fairly selective gateway that turns a lot of potential new players away. 5e doesn't much change that. PF is a callback to 3.5, it's appeal is how much it's mechanically like 3.5, that's it. 5e is a callback to the classic game, it's appeal is how much it feels like AD&D or old-school D&D, and that's about it. The big difference is that the pool of rabid 3.5 fans who absolutely refuse to change has already been largely captured by PF (and the ones that haven't been may also be drawn to 5e), while the pool of lapsed one-time D&D fans who played back when it was a fad is still pretty huge. What would it even be? Their fanbase is united by sunk system mastery investment and adamant rejection of change? How do you build on that? Even slowly net-loosing fans, as is probably the case, isn't fatal, you can spin out a product line like that for decades and make plenty of money, while trying to get something else going. The thing is, Paizo isn't just PF, they're also a company that made very popular adventures for D&D, they could get back into that pretty seamlessly with D&D having come back to the OGL. First include 5e stats in the back of new PF Adventures. Eventually swap it around with PF stats in the back. Pathfinder may have passed it's peak, but Paizo still has lots of opportunity. [/QUOTE]
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