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The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future
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<blockquote data-quote="Cergorach" data-source="post: 5760434" data-attributes="member: 725"><p>I've probably played more 2E then 3(.5)E in the last 25 years. 3E was a great improvement rules wise and WotC provided high levels of 'fluff' and art, started playing before it was even released (thanks to Eric Noah). 3(.5)E wasn't perfect, certainly at higher levels things broke down. 4E is mechanically a big improvement over 3.5E, but there are other great detractors: WotC didn't support 'fluff', one campaign per year, and that only consisted of a Campaign book, a monster book, and an adventure. Presentation was lacking, I've seen better presented technical manuals that invited the reader to read more (and not less). The core setting became to magical and 'alien' at the same time through the addition of new races and every class having 'magical' abilities. Even the art wasn't all that inspiring compared to 2E/3(.5)E. I tried DMing 4E, it just couldn't grab/motivate me.</p><p></p><p>It's not just the 3.5E and Pathfinder fans that say that 4E failed, it's the sales numbers that support those views. The D&D brand has always been the strongest seller in the RPG market, now it's about as big as Pathfinder (a very new kid on the block) and on it's heels are the WFRP/40kRPGs. Sure those figures don't include everything like the D&D electronic subscriptions or the Paizo direct sales, but it gives a neat view that supports the current opinions.</p><p></p><p>D&D 4E was marketed and designed with the MMO crowd in mind, I doubt that was the only crowd they were aiming at. And the MMO games did something right, they made fantasy RPG mainstream, they did that by using pretty simple rules designs. That is something WotC wanted to hook into and rules wise they succeeded imho, the problem is that they forget to give it a heart. And comparing the move from 2E to 3E to 3.5E to 4E is comparing apples with oranges. 3(.5)E was huge and 4E fizzled (when you look at sales figures). Even the folks that initially went for 4E eventually gave up and went back to 3.5E or Pathfinder. I'm sure the reverse is also true, but if the internet is any indication, that happens far, far less.</p><p></p><p>If you think that a 'short attention span' is an indication of stupid or immature, you either feel like you belong in that group or you have absolutely no idea how people work in relation to products. I even have a shorter attention span then 20 years ago (now 35), it's not like I've become stupid or even less immature, it's other factors. One of those is the incredible amount of entertainment we've got access to. More entertainment generally means more high quality entertainment, so we can become more critical on what forms of entertainment we spent our time on. 20 years ago I was willing to spent an evening of mediocre gaming for a few great kicks, now I expect and want a whole evening of great kicks and find mediocre gaming not worth my time. Part of that is getting older, we have less time to waste on silly things like gaming and want our free time to be filled with quality entertainment. Folks have families, kids, work, etc.</p><p></p><p>We have more movies and tv series that have high quality visuals that 'wow' folks, that doesn't mean a great story, but it tends to be better then your average RPG plot. Techniques and graphics have become cheaper and more easily accessible, that also becomes apparent in video games. I currently have a backlog of 200 Steam games with an average price of $5 and includes games such as Mass Effect and Civilization, great titles for peanuts. MMOs are getting F2P, thus also getting cheaper to play. Publishing books is getting cheaper due to digital distribution. All is more easily accessible through the internet. Heck, if I compare Mass Effect 1 to my average RPG gaming night, I prefer ME1 over that average RPG gaming night. RPGs have two big advantages, it's a social event (having a 'fun' evening with friends) and it's more flexible then any computer game currently can be. The problem is that the RPGs big advantage only becomes an advantage if you have a good DM and players that take advantage of the flexibility, if you don't your better off playing a good co-op computer game in the living room.</p><p></p><p>There are also far more boardgames out there that are high quality and attract the same kind of people that like RPGs. Games such as Descent are relatively cheap, don't require huge amounts of preparation and are still a lot of fun.</p><p></p><p>I haven't played a pnp RPG in years, busy with work, friends who've started families, difficulty syncing schedules, etc. Not to mention that as a DM I want to provide an exceptional experience, things like equipment card, 3D terrain (Hirst Arts), painted miniatures, good adventure, etc. That takes a lot of prep and often feels more like work then a fun hobby...</p><p></p><p>I've got 2-3 feet of 4E books that are pretty much unused, the only thing that WotC has released since 3.5E that I've found useful is their prepainted miniatures, that saves me a lot of work. But games like Pathfinder and WFRP2E and the whole 40k series of RPGs give me so much more inspiration the D&D 4E has ever done.</p><p></p><p>And let's not get started on D&D computer games, the last great D&D RPG was imho NWN1 (2002-2006), NWN2 was decent but less so then NWN1. Daggerdale is just bad. DDO can be a fun MMO, but imho does not really feel like D&D. I shudder to think what the Heroes of Neverwinter Facebook game will become. And the Neverwinter MMO by Cryptic is going to be a crapshoot with really bad odds.</p><p></p><p>I haven't read a D&D novel in years and I read a lot... If I were to read D&D novels I would probably start with some of the older ones I didn't read at the time.</p><p></p><p>Campaign settings: What little WotC produced under 4E has been painful, another enormous shakeup in Forgotten Realms (imho they could have better just made a new setting). What they did with Darksun wasn't all that great either. I've always found Ebberon a bit 'Meh!', so I can't really comment on the treatment of that setting...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cergorach, post: 5760434, member: 725"] I've probably played more 2E then 3(.5)E in the last 25 years. 3E was a great improvement rules wise and WotC provided high levels of 'fluff' and art, started playing before it was even released (thanks to Eric Noah). 3(.5)E wasn't perfect, certainly at higher levels things broke down. 4E is mechanically a big improvement over 3.5E, but there are other great detractors: WotC didn't support 'fluff', one campaign per year, and that only consisted of a Campaign book, a monster book, and an adventure. Presentation was lacking, I've seen better presented technical manuals that invited the reader to read more (and not less). The core setting became to magical and 'alien' at the same time through the addition of new races and every class having 'magical' abilities. Even the art wasn't all that inspiring compared to 2E/3(.5)E. I tried DMing 4E, it just couldn't grab/motivate me. It's not just the 3.5E and Pathfinder fans that say that 4E failed, it's the sales numbers that support those views. The D&D brand has always been the strongest seller in the RPG market, now it's about as big as Pathfinder (a very new kid on the block) and on it's heels are the WFRP/40kRPGs. Sure those figures don't include everything like the D&D electronic subscriptions or the Paizo direct sales, but it gives a neat view that supports the current opinions. D&D 4E was marketed and designed with the MMO crowd in mind, I doubt that was the only crowd they were aiming at. And the MMO games did something right, they made fantasy RPG mainstream, they did that by using pretty simple rules designs. That is something WotC wanted to hook into and rules wise they succeeded imho, the problem is that they forget to give it a heart. And comparing the move from 2E to 3E to 3.5E to 4E is comparing apples with oranges. 3(.5)E was huge and 4E fizzled (when you look at sales figures). Even the folks that initially went for 4E eventually gave up and went back to 3.5E or Pathfinder. I'm sure the reverse is also true, but if the internet is any indication, that happens far, far less. If you think that a 'short attention span' is an indication of stupid or immature, you either feel like you belong in that group or you have absolutely no idea how people work in relation to products. I even have a shorter attention span then 20 years ago (now 35), it's not like I've become stupid or even less immature, it's other factors. One of those is the incredible amount of entertainment we've got access to. More entertainment generally means more high quality entertainment, so we can become more critical on what forms of entertainment we spent our time on. 20 years ago I was willing to spent an evening of mediocre gaming for a few great kicks, now I expect and want a whole evening of great kicks and find mediocre gaming not worth my time. Part of that is getting older, we have less time to waste on silly things like gaming and want our free time to be filled with quality entertainment. Folks have families, kids, work, etc. We have more movies and tv series that have high quality visuals that 'wow' folks, that doesn't mean a great story, but it tends to be better then your average RPG plot. Techniques and graphics have become cheaper and more easily accessible, that also becomes apparent in video games. I currently have a backlog of 200 Steam games with an average price of $5 and includes games such as Mass Effect and Civilization, great titles for peanuts. MMOs are getting F2P, thus also getting cheaper to play. Publishing books is getting cheaper due to digital distribution. All is more easily accessible through the internet. Heck, if I compare Mass Effect 1 to my average RPG gaming night, I prefer ME1 over that average RPG gaming night. RPGs have two big advantages, it's a social event (having a 'fun' evening with friends) and it's more flexible then any computer game currently can be. The problem is that the RPGs big advantage only becomes an advantage if you have a good DM and players that take advantage of the flexibility, if you don't your better off playing a good co-op computer game in the living room. There are also far more boardgames out there that are high quality and attract the same kind of people that like RPGs. Games such as Descent are relatively cheap, don't require huge amounts of preparation and are still a lot of fun. I haven't played a pnp RPG in years, busy with work, friends who've started families, difficulty syncing schedules, etc. Not to mention that as a DM I want to provide an exceptional experience, things like equipment card, 3D terrain (Hirst Arts), painted miniatures, good adventure, etc. That takes a lot of prep and often feels more like work then a fun hobby... I've got 2-3 feet of 4E books that are pretty much unused, the only thing that WotC has released since 3.5E that I've found useful is their prepainted miniatures, that saves me a lot of work. But games like Pathfinder and WFRP2E and the whole 40k series of RPGs give me so much more inspiration the D&D 4E has ever done. And let's not get started on D&D computer games, the last great D&D RPG was imho NWN1 (2002-2006), NWN2 was decent but less so then NWN1. Daggerdale is just bad. DDO can be a fun MMO, but imho does not really feel like D&D. I shudder to think what the Heroes of Neverwinter Facebook game will become. And the Neverwinter MMO by Cryptic is going to be a crapshoot with really bad odds. I haven't read a D&D novel in years and I read a lot... If I were to read D&D novels I would probably start with some of the older ones I didn't read at the time. Campaign settings: What little WotC produced under 4E has been painful, another enormous shakeup in Forgotten Realms (imho they could have better just made a new setting). What they did with Darksun wasn't all that great either. I've always found Ebberon a bit 'Meh!', so I can't really comment on the treatment of that setting... [/QUOTE]
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