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The Explicatae Incompositae - Being A Bestairy of the Sometime Lords of Chaos
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<blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3350912" data-attributes="member: 29746"><p>If raw damage is being dealt, and taking his DR into account (which I was, in saying a tank would be dealing a measly 20 damage per hit- without the DR it would be much higher), this seems a reasonable estimate to me. However, a party using optimized tactics could wipe the floor with 600 hit points. As an example, one tactic the sub-20th-level PCs in JollyDoc's Age of Worms storyhour (over on that forum) were known to use on most big bads was,</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>(1)</strong> Cast <em>Time Stop</em> to get extra, uninterruptable actions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>(2)</strong> Enclose enemy in <em>Forcecage</em> (specifically the barred version so spells could get through it).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>(3)</strong> Enclose enemy in <em>Dimensional Lock</em> or <em>Dimensional Anchor</em> to prevent escape.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>(4)</strong> Assuming you have rounds 3, 4, or 5, create one or more <em>Walls of Fire</em> or similarly damaging location-based effects which intersect inside the <em>Forcecage</em> such that the enclosed big bad is unable to avoid them in any way.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>(Phase 3)</strong> Profit!</li> </ul><p></p><p>This tactic was especially effective for them because their party included a Warlock, whose <em>Walls of Perilous Flame</em> deal half Fire damage, half nontyped damage- so Energy Resistance/Immunity doesn't fully negate it. Also, it's especially hurtful to Undead, per <em>Wall of Fire's</em> description, which means it was brutally effective in the Age of Worms AP in general. Using this tactic, I believe they took out Dragotha in two or three rounds.</p><p></p><p>Now, their case was atypical in that (a) every PC was min-maxed to the gills, and (b) the players are great tactical thinkers who very rarely use suboptimal tactics in any given combat situation (in fact, their group- or at least several regulars from it- won the D&D Open at Gen Con in 2006 IIRC). But they're also characters below 20th level, and it shows you what can be done by serious powergamers out to exploit every rule they can.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That would be wise. And, not a bad way to do it, since this is being written essentially like a book. If this were a monster manual on the market, I could see the publisher doing it that way.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The DMG NPCs don't take into account the most important thing at these levels: buff spells. If the party is stuck using magic items alone, your estimates may be reasonable (though don't forget cheap items like Cloaks of Resistance +5 and Stones of Luck- my players certainly never do), but buff spells and effects like Bardic Music open up whole new areas of bonuses for the powergamers in your party to use. I'm used to the powergamer players in my games (one of which is currently sitting at 20th level) having <strong>every</strong> save bonus above +20; the less-obsessive-about-rules characters are more around your suggested design parameters in that group- at least for their bad saves.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Drama does not require a long fight in terms of game time, actually- in fact, some of my most dramatic combats only ran one round. The drama is in what happens, what the combat means, and particularly in the buildup to the actual fight. Good, flavorful descriptions of things like that massive critical hit that took the beast down for half its hit points can go a long way here. But, I can sympathize with your motive here, certainly. The entire reason to keep playing the game at high levels is for the massive, epic drama and scope that becomes possible there.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If the SR is not <strong>above</strong> the +10 rule, chances are the party won't really care much about it in the case of a Big Bad. Remember, the SR = CR + 10 means that on average, a spellcaster of level = CR needs a 10 or higher on the caster level check to beat the SR. That's a 55% chance of success, since equalling the SR means success. But here, you also need to take buffs into account again. There are several magic items which can increase caster level for the purpose of SR checks, and even some actual spells like <em>Assay Resistance</em> (in the Spell Compendium). That one in particular is a favorite in my player groups.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not a bad idea. It both fits the flavor of the Lords, and makes them immune to things such as <em>Power Words</em> and <em>Enervates</em>. (The latter is particularly important since it doesn't allow a saving throw.)</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Greater Magic Fang</em> is your friend. Giving them a means to buff themselves can work wonders. Also, you could get away with a few Cleric-type buffs I think, particularly if you go the DR 0 route, and this would help all of them become more threatening. It might also work to your advantage to give some of them powers like, say, having a constant stream of music fill the air near the Lord, providing a Bardic Music-type bonus that's relatively permanent and doesn't require the Lord to actually concentrate on it or even think about it. That can only work for appropriately-flavored Lords, obviously, but it's a possibility you might consider. You've already made similar "off the wall" powers for several of them, which are both very cool and mechanically helpful. But I'll get to those as I get to each Lord.</p><p></p><p>One thing you might consider using at least once is providing the Slaad Lord with a Luck bonus to saves, AC, or other rolls. Luck is associated with Chaos, so it would not be out of flavor for most of them- though it may be best to use this idea sparingly to avoid a strong whiff of limburger.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is also a possibility. It's better used for the stronger ones of course, but you knew that. Honestly, the scores you gave them are fairly on-target IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Most unique Outsiders- the sort called "Lords" by planar scholars- should have Epic DR, IMO. They're supposed to be legendary beings nearly impossible to hurt, and Epic DR is precisely tailored for that sort of flavor. But, that's me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They aren't, though I think your Slaad Lords could use more buffs as I said above.</p><p></p><p></p><p>A little bit of both. They creatures were overrated- high-level characters aren't nearly as fragile as WotC was assuming when setting CRs back in the days of 3.0- but 3.5 has seen power creep that can be significant when powergamers grab at the new suite of options. Spells like <em>Assay Resistance</em> are a perfect example. That existed in 3.0, too, but I'll bet it's a lot more commonly used now that it's in the Spell Compendium.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But... you're dealing with <strong>Slaad Lords</strong> here! Would that really be a bad thing? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p>Cheesing shouldn't be necessary- minor tweaks can make them much more flexible and dangerous without breaking the flavor. Your ideas above are good ones; going with them should do the trick. Plus, we've been talking about arguably the weakest one you posted, all this time- the others aren't necessarily affected by his issues.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="paradox42, post: 3350912, member: 29746"] If raw damage is being dealt, and taking his DR into account (which I was, in saying a tank would be dealing a measly 20 damage per hit- without the DR it would be much higher), this seems a reasonable estimate to me. However, a party using optimized tactics could wipe the floor with 600 hit points. As an example, one tactic the sub-20th-level PCs in JollyDoc's Age of Worms storyhour (over on that forum) were known to use on most big bads was, [list] [*][b](1)[/b] Cast [i]Time Stop[/i] to get extra, uninterruptable actions. [*][b](2)[/b] Enclose enemy in [i]Forcecage[/i] (specifically the barred version so spells could get through it). [*][b](3)[/b] Enclose enemy in [i]Dimensional Lock[/i] or [i]Dimensional Anchor[/i] to prevent escape. [*][b](4)[/b] Assuming you have rounds 3, 4, or 5, create one or more [i]Walls of Fire[/i] or similarly damaging location-based effects which intersect inside the [i]Forcecage[/i] such that the enclosed big bad is unable to avoid them in any way. [*][b](Phase 3)[/b] Profit! [/list] This tactic was especially effective for them because their party included a Warlock, whose [i]Walls of Perilous Flame[/i] deal half Fire damage, half nontyped damage- so Energy Resistance/Immunity doesn't fully negate it. Also, it's especially hurtful to Undead, per [i]Wall of Fire's[/i] description, which means it was brutally effective in the Age of Worms AP in general. Using this tactic, I believe they took out Dragotha in two or three rounds. Now, their case was atypical in that (a) every PC was min-maxed to the gills, and (b) the players are great tactical thinkers who very rarely use suboptimal tactics in any given combat situation (in fact, their group- or at least several regulars from it- won the D&D Open at Gen Con in 2006 IIRC). But they're also characters below 20th level, and it shows you what can be done by serious powergamers out to exploit every rule they can. That would be wise. And, not a bad way to do it, since this is being written essentially like a book. If this were a monster manual on the market, I could see the publisher doing it that way. The DMG NPCs don't take into account the most important thing at these levels: buff spells. If the party is stuck using magic items alone, your estimates may be reasonable (though don't forget cheap items like Cloaks of Resistance +5 and Stones of Luck- my players certainly never do), but buff spells and effects like Bardic Music open up whole new areas of bonuses for the powergamers in your party to use. I'm used to the powergamer players in my games (one of which is currently sitting at 20th level) having [b]every[/b] save bonus above +20; the less-obsessive-about-rules characters are more around your suggested design parameters in that group- at least for their bad saves. Drama does not require a long fight in terms of game time, actually- in fact, some of my most dramatic combats only ran one round. The drama is in what happens, what the combat means, and particularly in the buildup to the actual fight. Good, flavorful descriptions of things like that massive critical hit that took the beast down for half its hit points can go a long way here. But, I can sympathize with your motive here, certainly. The entire reason to keep playing the game at high levels is for the massive, epic drama and scope that becomes possible there. If the SR is not [b]above[/b] the +10 rule, chances are the party won't really care much about it in the case of a Big Bad. Remember, the SR = CR + 10 means that on average, a spellcaster of level = CR needs a 10 or higher on the caster level check to beat the SR. That's a 55% chance of success, since equalling the SR means success. But here, you also need to take buffs into account again. There are several magic items which can increase caster level for the purpose of SR checks, and even some actual spells like [i]Assay Resistance[/i] (in the Spell Compendium). That one in particular is a favorite in my player groups. Not a bad idea. It both fits the flavor of the Lords, and makes them immune to things such as [i]Power Words[/i] and [i]Enervates[/i]. (The latter is particularly important since it doesn't allow a saving throw.) [i]Greater Magic Fang[/i] is your friend. Giving them a means to buff themselves can work wonders. Also, you could get away with a few Cleric-type buffs I think, particularly if you go the DR 0 route, and this would help all of them become more threatening. It might also work to your advantage to give some of them powers like, say, having a constant stream of music fill the air near the Lord, providing a Bardic Music-type bonus that's relatively permanent and doesn't require the Lord to actually concentrate on it or even think about it. That can only work for appropriately-flavored Lords, obviously, but it's a possibility you might consider. You've already made similar "off the wall" powers for several of them, which are both very cool and mechanically helpful. But I'll get to those as I get to each Lord. One thing you might consider using at least once is providing the Slaad Lord with a Luck bonus to saves, AC, or other rolls. Luck is associated with Chaos, so it would not be out of flavor for most of them- though it may be best to use this idea sparingly to avoid a strong whiff of limburger. This is also a possibility. It's better used for the stronger ones of course, but you knew that. Honestly, the scores you gave them are fairly on-target IMO. Most unique Outsiders- the sort called "Lords" by planar scholars- should have Epic DR, IMO. They're supposed to be legendary beings nearly impossible to hurt, and Epic DR is precisely tailored for that sort of flavor. But, that's me. They aren't, though I think your Slaad Lords could use more buffs as I said above. A little bit of both. They creatures were overrated- high-level characters aren't nearly as fragile as WotC was assuming when setting CRs back in the days of 3.0- but 3.5 has seen power creep that can be significant when powergamers grab at the new suite of options. Spells like [i]Assay Resistance[/i] are a perfect example. That existed in 3.0, too, but I'll bet it's a lot more commonly used now that it's in the Spell Compendium. But... you're dealing with [b]Slaad Lords[/b] here! Would that really be a bad thing? :D Cheesing shouldn't be necessary- minor tweaks can make them much more flexible and dangerous without breaking the flavor. Your ideas above are good ones; going with them should do the trick. Plus, we've been talking about arguably the weakest one you posted, all this time- the others aren't necessarily affected by his issues. [/QUOTE]
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