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The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7256509" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>Sure...but this is why I said "most likely". Chances are that Rangers are very likely and Rogues almost certainly built around DEX. Fighters are more likely to be built around STR. So, most likely but not always, a Fighter will be stronger. </p><p></p><p>There are always exceptions. If we're going to speak about how a Fighter can contribute outside of combat then we should probably discuss choices that the player makes that allow him to do so, and not choices he makes that don't allow it. Anyone can build a character of any class who is not good at anything. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, I wasn't clearer....I meant the Jumping Distance aspect of Remarkable Athlete more so than the boost for non-proficient skills. The non-proficiency boost is helpful, but not as meaningful as Expertise, I agree. </p><p></p><p>Additional jumping distance is a good boost, though. I suppose it matters how much that comes up in games....but I think jumping would be a pretty common check. YMMV.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, all those skills all fall under the Athletics umbrella, that is my point. Chances are more likely that a Fighter will be proficient, and also have a high STR. Yes, it is possible for a Rogue to devote his Expertise to Athletics, but it seems less likely than devoting it to Stealth, Perception, Thieves Tools, Deception, Acrobatics, Investigation, and so on. Certainly possible, but less likely. </p><p></p><p>So again, I am not claiming universal superiority, but just general trends that I would expect to see.</p><p></p><p>As for boats and ropes....kind of irrelevant. I don't think that most adventurers keep boats in their backpacks. Ropes, for sure....but ropes don't tie themselves to high ledges or ramparts. When I think of Exploration, I think of Tomb Raider. Climbing up a ledge, tying the rope so the DC is easier for others to follow, then jumping across the ravine to hit the lever that lowers the bridge....this is all Exploration and the Fighter will most likely be good at all of it. </p><p></p><p>Denying that....I don't know....it seems like you guys are starting with the conclusion you want, and then shaping your evidence around that, rather than looking at the actual class details and then deciding based on those if the class is indeed "useless" outside of combat or not. </p><p></p><p>Perception, Investigation, Stealth, and Survival are all important to exploration, as well. The Fighter has access to 2 of the 4 as a class, and I specifically mentioned Survival as a likely choice. If a party doesn't have a Ranger, then the Fighter may very well be their best bet for Tracking and Foraging and the like. If the party does have a Ranger, then the Fighter will still most likely excel at STR based skill checks. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I wouldn't have minded if Remarkable Athlete worked along the lines of Expertise. But the fact that they didn't doesn't render the Fighter useless outside of combat. </p><p></p><p>As for previous editions, I don't think it's all that useful of a comparison to compare proficiency to in-class skills or trained skills of prior editions. The discussion is not about how the Fighter as a class has improved over editions. It's about how it stacks up against other classes in non-combat contribution.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7256509, member: 6785785"] Sure...but this is why I said "most likely". Chances are that Rangers are very likely and Rogues almost certainly built around DEX. Fighters are more likely to be built around STR. So, most likely but not always, a Fighter will be stronger. There are always exceptions. If we're going to speak about how a Fighter can contribute outside of combat then we should probably discuss choices that the player makes that allow him to do so, and not choices he makes that don't allow it. Anyone can build a character of any class who is not good at anything. Sorry, I wasn't clearer....I meant the Jumping Distance aspect of Remarkable Athlete more so than the boost for non-proficient skills. The non-proficiency boost is helpful, but not as meaningful as Expertise, I agree. Additional jumping distance is a good boost, though. I suppose it matters how much that comes up in games....but I think jumping would be a pretty common check. YMMV. Yes, all those skills all fall under the Athletics umbrella, that is my point. Chances are more likely that a Fighter will be proficient, and also have a high STR. Yes, it is possible for a Rogue to devote his Expertise to Athletics, but it seems less likely than devoting it to Stealth, Perception, Thieves Tools, Deception, Acrobatics, Investigation, and so on. Certainly possible, but less likely. So again, I am not claiming universal superiority, but just general trends that I would expect to see. As for boats and ropes....kind of irrelevant. I don't think that most adventurers keep boats in their backpacks. Ropes, for sure....but ropes don't tie themselves to high ledges or ramparts. When I think of Exploration, I think of Tomb Raider. Climbing up a ledge, tying the rope so the DC is easier for others to follow, then jumping across the ravine to hit the lever that lowers the bridge....this is all Exploration and the Fighter will most likely be good at all of it. Denying that....I don't know....it seems like you guys are starting with the conclusion you want, and then shaping your evidence around that, rather than looking at the actual class details and then deciding based on those if the class is indeed "useless" outside of combat or not. Perception, Investigation, Stealth, and Survival are all important to exploration, as well. The Fighter has access to 2 of the 4 as a class, and I specifically mentioned Survival as a likely choice. If a party doesn't have a Ranger, then the Fighter may very well be their best bet for Tracking and Foraging and the like. If the party does have a Ranger, then the Fighter will still most likely excel at STR based skill checks. I wouldn't have minded if Remarkable Athlete worked along the lines of Expertise. But the fact that they didn't doesn't render the Fighter useless outside of combat. As for previous editions, I don't think it's all that useful of a comparison to compare proficiency to in-class skills or trained skills of prior editions. The discussion is not about how the Fighter as a class has improved over editions. It's about how it stacks up against other classes in non-combat contribution. [/QUOTE]
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