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The final word on DPR, feats and class balance
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7438771" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Then the best comparison is to SS, which also takes disadvantage in melee, so it's a wash.</p><p></p><p>That or factor in the times the GWM can't reach enemies, thus as 0 DPR while the SS & caster's DPR continues to grind. </p><p></p><p>::shrug::</p><p></p><p> I think the rub is that the option is even there. The archer can fall back on a melee weapon to avoid disadvantage, at a significant drop in effectiveness, the caster can 'fall back' on a save-forcing spell, probably at an upgrade in effectiveness, but drop in resources - but both will likely try to avoid melee. Both have their mobility & wits to help with that, one also has spells. </p><p></p><p> That reasoning falls apart as soon as you compare the ranged DPR archer apple to the ranged DPR sorcerer apple. The archer can switch to a finesse weapon for a reduction in effectiveness, or seek compensatory advantage, or try to avoid or extricate himself from melee - all by prettymuch just using his wits or depending on an ally for help (like a melee type blocking). The Sorcerer could switch to a cantrip that's not a ranged attack (those are few & obscure), or switch to melee and take such a major hit it's probably no worth it, or try any of the other things the archer could, or resort to a spell that doesn't use an attack roll or allows him to escape. </p><p></p><p>(As it so often shakes out, the fighter's 'advantage' is in being theoretically bit less hosed when they're both backed into a corner of the absolute worst-case scenario. Yippee, hope that comes up a lot so the fighter can 'shine!')</p><p></p><p> Nod, I just think he wants a different solution. Simply not opting into feats removes all sorts of issues, not just some corner case DPR imbalances among already brokenly-high levels of DPR. It makes the game more approachable, increases the likelihood higher level PCs will shore up their dump stats, etc, etc...</p><p>...if you're already opting into feats, though, you want moar options, moar player options, anyway, so the preferred solution when moar is too much moar is much, much moar moar - moar feats, moar DPR, and moar monsters with moar hps & moar DPR to provide moar challenge.</p><p></p><p>(OK, that was moar moar than was called for.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7438771, member: 996"] Then the best comparison is to SS, which also takes disadvantage in melee, so it's a wash. That or factor in the times the GWM can't reach enemies, thus as 0 DPR while the SS & caster's DPR continues to grind. ::shrug:: I think the rub is that the option is even there. The archer can fall back on a melee weapon to avoid disadvantage, at a significant drop in effectiveness, the caster can 'fall back' on a save-forcing spell, probably at an upgrade in effectiveness, but drop in resources - but both will likely try to avoid melee. Both have their mobility & wits to help with that, one also has spells. That reasoning falls apart as soon as you compare the ranged DPR archer apple to the ranged DPR sorcerer apple. The archer can switch to a finesse weapon for a reduction in effectiveness, or seek compensatory advantage, or try to avoid or extricate himself from melee - all by prettymuch just using his wits or depending on an ally for help (like a melee type blocking). The Sorcerer could switch to a cantrip that's not a ranged attack (those are few & obscure), or switch to melee and take such a major hit it's probably no worth it, or try any of the other things the archer could, or resort to a spell that doesn't use an attack roll or allows him to escape. (As it so often shakes out, the fighter's 'advantage' is in being theoretically bit less hosed when they're both backed into a corner of the absolute worst-case scenario. Yippee, hope that comes up a lot so the fighter can 'shine!') Nod, I just think he wants a different solution. Simply not opting into feats removes all sorts of issues, not just some corner case DPR imbalances among already brokenly-high levels of DPR. It makes the game more approachable, increases the likelihood higher level PCs will shore up their dump stats, etc, etc... ...if you're already opting into feats, though, you want moar options, moar player options, anyway, so the preferred solution when moar is too much moar is much, much moar moar - moar feats, moar DPR, and moar monsters with moar hps & moar DPR to provide moar challenge. (OK, that was moar moar than was called for.) [/QUOTE]
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