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The Importance of Verisimilitude (or "Why you don't need realism to keep it real")
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9176600" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>It honestly isn't. D&D however point blank refuses to do any of the measures that would work for both balance and versimilitude.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can make magic <em>dangerous </em>and having <em>drawbacks</em> as in Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Spellcasters have a chance of melting their own minds or summoning uncontrolled monsters. So even casters don't want to cast spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can give magic <em>limitations</em> such as not being able to affect cold iron - so a fighter with an iron sword could just cut through a wizard's spells and defences and one shot them while someone in plate armour is more or less magic immune.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can make magic <em>slow</em> and <em>ritualistic</em> so when the rubber meets the road people draw swords because they don't have time to start to draw the ritual circles</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can make magic <em>limited in power</em> - with a level cap. Or even a level cap beyond which being a muggle doesn't make sense</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can make magic permeate the world - and the more magic permeates the body (and thus increases hit points and physical capabilities) the less you can use magic to cast spells.</li> </ul><p>The problem isn't one of versimilitude; no one has problems with the versimilitude of e.g. Call of Cthulu's way of balancing casters with non-casters. The problem is that there is a faction of people for which magic must be utterly reliable, wizards must be capable of casting Wish and having almost no drawbacks - and fighters must be muggles, utterly magically crippled in a world run by spellcasters.</p><p></p><p>This has nothing to do with versimilitude. It has everything to do with people wanting incoherent and unbalanced worldbuilding that makes casters able to lord it over non-casters and simply point blank refusing any method of balance - all while ignoring the elephant in the room that is hit points.</p><p></p><p>This simply isn't true. A warlord could get someone to dig deep into their own reserves and spend a healing surge just as well as a Cleric could pray with someone and get them onto their feet with an amplified placebo effect. But healing, <em>actual</em> healing that wasn't just digging deep, required either the magic to provide the healing surges or for the caster to spend them. And guess what? <em>Clerics and paladins could both do this with the right abilities but warlords had <strong>no</strong> in-class abilities that did this.</em></p><p></p><p>And the salient principles to keep in mind are</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hit points shatter versimilitude. I believe that what you call versimilitude was what Gygax called realism and explicitly said "<em>I have personally come to suspect that this banner is the refuge of scoundrels; whether the last or first refuge is immaterial. ...As a game must first and foremost be fun, it needs no claim to “realism” to justify its existence.</em><strong>" </strong>Yet for some reason people want a game of hit points, hard coded classes, and hard coded levels to be "realistic". </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">People want the wizard able to do almost anything except heal and the fighter to be a muggle - yet both of them to be officially the same level</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Even after fifteen years people will spread false information about 4e.</li> </ul><p>So let's go back to the definition of versimilitude from the OP</p><p></p><p>The idea that a 17th level muggle is equivalent to a wizard who can true polymorph permanently into an adult red dragon and cast Wish to me utterly shatters any semblance of truth, genuineness, or authenticity that the game system provides. Barely restricted magic that is as reliable as technology alongside muggles isn't a problem - as long as you go the Ars Magica route and don't pretend they are equal. When you are pretending that they are equivalent you have lost any appearance of truth, genuineness, or authenticity in your game system.</p><p></p><p>D&D is and has always been an ultra-gamist game with classes, hit points, levels, and pseudo-Vancian casting. And it feels ridiculous to me to guzzle all this inherent artifice down other than in an Order of the Stick style world and claim that in a world of artificial levels and classes what would break your versimilitude is for a couple of the classes to be as magical as everyone else but in a different way when they are supposedly of the same level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9176600, member: 87792"] It honestly isn't. D&D however point blank refuses to do any of the measures that would work for both balance and versimilitude. [LIST] [*]You can make magic [I]dangerous [/I]and having [I]drawbacks[/I] as in Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Spellcasters have a chance of melting their own minds or summoning uncontrolled monsters. So even casters don't want to cast spells. [*]You can give magic [I]limitations[/I] such as not being able to affect cold iron - so a fighter with an iron sword could just cut through a wizard's spells and defences and one shot them while someone in plate armour is more or less magic immune. [*]You can make magic [I]slow[/I] and [I]ritualistic[/I] so when the rubber meets the road people draw swords because they don't have time to start to draw the ritual circles [*]You can make magic [I]limited in power[/I] - with a level cap. Or even a level cap beyond which being a muggle doesn't make sense [*]You can make magic permeate the world - and the more magic permeates the body (and thus increases hit points and physical capabilities) the less you can use magic to cast spells. [/LIST] The problem isn't one of versimilitude; no one has problems with the versimilitude of e.g. Call of Cthulu's way of balancing casters with non-casters. The problem is that there is a faction of people for which magic must be utterly reliable, wizards must be capable of casting Wish and having almost no drawbacks - and fighters must be muggles, utterly magically crippled in a world run by spellcasters. This has nothing to do with versimilitude. It has everything to do with people wanting incoherent and unbalanced worldbuilding that makes casters able to lord it over non-casters and simply point blank refusing any method of balance - all while ignoring the elephant in the room that is hit points. This simply isn't true. A warlord could get someone to dig deep into their own reserves and spend a healing surge just as well as a Cleric could pray with someone and get them onto their feet with an amplified placebo effect. But healing, [I]actual[/I] healing that wasn't just digging deep, required either the magic to provide the healing surges or for the caster to spend them. And guess what? [I]Clerics and paladins could both do this with the right abilities but warlords had [B]no[/B] in-class abilities that did this.[/I] And the salient principles to keep in mind are [LIST] [*]Hit points shatter versimilitude. I believe that what you call versimilitude was what Gygax called realism and explicitly said "[I]I have personally come to suspect that this banner is the refuge of scoundrels; whether the last or first refuge is immaterial. ...As a game must first and foremost be fun, it needs no claim to “realism” to justify its existence.[/I][B]" [/B]Yet for some reason people want a game of hit points, hard coded classes, and hard coded levels to be "realistic". [B][/B] [*]People want the wizard able to do almost anything except heal and the fighter to be a muggle - yet both of them to be officially the same level [*]Even after fifteen years people will spread false information about 4e. [/LIST] So let's go back to the definition of versimilitude from the OP The idea that a 17th level muggle is equivalent to a wizard who can true polymorph permanently into an adult red dragon and cast Wish to me utterly shatters any semblance of truth, genuineness, or authenticity that the game system provides. Barely restricted magic that is as reliable as technology alongside muggles isn't a problem - as long as you go the Ars Magica route and don't pretend they are equal. When you are pretending that they are equivalent you have lost any appearance of truth, genuineness, or authenticity in your game system. D&D is and has always been an ultra-gamist game with classes, hit points, levels, and pseudo-Vancian casting. And it feels ridiculous to me to guzzle all this inherent artifice down other than in an Order of the Stick style world and claim that in a world of artificial levels and classes what would break your versimilitude is for a couple of the classes to be as magical as everyone else but in a different way when they are supposedly of the same level. [/QUOTE]
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