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The Knight Eldritch (Eldritch Knight decoupling onto the Wizard) [very early version]
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7575830" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>Yes, I already indicated it is a significant difference. But we also need to consider factors that contribute to that significance. Such as the additional cost to access the Hexblade, and the fact that the Fiend pact is the only pact available in the free D&D set. If we control for these factors, I would hypothesize that Hexblade evens out with Fiend, if not pulls ahead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Perhaps for you. But that is not a universal priority. If that were the case, why bother with mechanics, rules, or balance? Why not just cherry pick the class abilities you want. Or better yet just tell group stories. D&D is a roleplaying game. Thus it has elements of both a game and taking on roles to tell a story. Each are deserving of equal attention. Disregarding the structure and mechanical balance elements of the D&D can impact the game aspect of playing and just as easily impair the fairness and enjoyment of the other players as it allows one player to live out their exact concept. No class is good and excels at everything. That gives options and choices meaning and allows constraints that can enhance creativity and problem solving.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>There are ways to make a warlock function as a competent fighter without giving them everything at level 1 through the Hexblade. In fact, I have such a product on the DMSGuild that adjusts the Hexblade to be in line with the capacities of other Patrons and adjusts the Pacts to allow for it within the precedented structure without giving the Hexblade everything and the kitchen sink. Any other Warlock needs to be at least a level 2 Warlocks/Fighter to get what the Hexblade gets, and even then they can't sub Charsima for Strength. How is that fair and balanced?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A thing doesn't have to break the game to be unbalanced or impact how the spotlight is shared amongst the party or how other players enjoy the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly white wall theory crafting may not reflect what happens in play. However, this is not a discussion about the Hexblade. This is a discussion about how to create an effective and balanced GISH. My main argument is the following:</p><p></p><p>-New archetypes for existing classes should follow the basic structure of existing archetypes. They should not offer significantly more features, and there should be reasonable balance between those offering to ensure all archetypes are equally competitive. I believe the Hexblade fails in this, because it just offers so much more than any other archetype.</p><p></p><p>-A competent warrior-spellcaster gish can be effective and more interesting without "substitute Str/Dex for most convenient stat.</p><p></p><p>-Mechanics are not inherently related to concept or in-game lore. If existing abilities or mechanics can be reskinned to appear like something else, then consider doing this first before creating new mechanics. Thus "playing a concept" does not mean accepting what is presented in the book. There is nothing inherent about the race labeled "human" and thus there is no reason a mechanical human couldn't be described as an orc or Minotaur. Similarly, a player can call their Fiend Warlock a Hexblade, or The Great Old One a Archfey, or anything in between. How a character plays mechanically versus how they are described do not have to be the same. I can easily skin a Fighter with Archery as a Wandslinger that uses a 2-handed battlestaff to shot bolts of energy. The descriptions are very different, but mechanically it's still a fighter using a Longbow.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's also helpful to remember that in addition the Hexblade gets 2 free 1/2 feats (Weapon Master and Moderately Armored) AND can sub for a more desirable stat ON TOP of their once per rest curse, that also does more than grant Temp HP to killed targets.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the reasons already pointed out. The GOO patron is equivalent to a modified Message cantrip. Roughly equal to 1/3 of the Magic Initiate feat. Hexblade gets 1 feat (moderately armored and weapon master minus stat bumps), substitutes a less desirable stat for a more desirable one, and a once per rest ability. </p><p></p><p>Fiend gets on always on ability (equivalent to stat substitution), Archfey gets a per rest ability (equivalent to Hexblade curse), Great Old One gets a modified message cantrip (1/3 the value of medium armor, shield, and martial weapon proficiency). Hexblade gets the power equivalent of 3 patrons in 1.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Disagree. Once again, bringing this discussion back to the relevance of the original post, this is about creating a mechanical effective and balanced GISH. Not about the merits of the Hexblade. My argument is the Hexblade is a poor model for a GISH because:</p><p></p><p>1) Stat substitution is lazy and boring compared to more interesting and creative mechanical solutions</p><p></p><p>2) It does not follow the mold of previous archetype structure.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7575830, member: 59848"] Yes, I already indicated it is a significant difference. But we also need to consider factors that contribute to that significance. Such as the additional cost to access the Hexblade, and the fact that the Fiend pact is the only pact available in the free D&D set. If we control for these factors, I would hypothesize that Hexblade evens out with Fiend, if not pulls ahead. Perhaps for you. But that is not a universal priority. If that were the case, why bother with mechanics, rules, or balance? Why not just cherry pick the class abilities you want. Or better yet just tell group stories. D&D is a roleplaying game. Thus it has elements of both a game and taking on roles to tell a story. Each are deserving of equal attention. Disregarding the structure and mechanical balance elements of the D&D can impact the game aspect of playing and just as easily impair the fairness and enjoyment of the other players as it allows one player to live out their exact concept. No class is good and excels at everything. That gives options and choices meaning and allows constraints that can enhance creativity and problem solving. There are ways to make a warlock function as a competent fighter without giving them everything at level 1 through the Hexblade. In fact, I have such a product on the DMSGuild that adjusts the Hexblade to be in line with the capacities of other Patrons and adjusts the Pacts to allow for it within the precedented structure without giving the Hexblade everything and the kitchen sink. Any other Warlock needs to be at least a level 2 Warlocks/Fighter to get what the Hexblade gets, and even then they can't sub Charsima for Strength. How is that fair and balanced? A thing doesn't have to break the game to be unbalanced or impact how the spotlight is shared amongst the party or how other players enjoy the game. Certainly white wall theory crafting may not reflect what happens in play. However, this is not a discussion about the Hexblade. This is a discussion about how to create an effective and balanced GISH. My main argument is the following: -New archetypes for existing classes should follow the basic structure of existing archetypes. They should not offer significantly more features, and there should be reasonable balance between those offering to ensure all archetypes are equally competitive. I believe the Hexblade fails in this, because it just offers so much more than any other archetype. -A competent warrior-spellcaster gish can be effective and more interesting without "substitute Str/Dex for most convenient stat. -Mechanics are not inherently related to concept or in-game lore. If existing abilities or mechanics can be reskinned to appear like something else, then consider doing this first before creating new mechanics. Thus "playing a concept" does not mean accepting what is presented in the book. There is nothing inherent about the race labeled "human" and thus there is no reason a mechanical human couldn't be described as an orc or Minotaur. Similarly, a player can call their Fiend Warlock a Hexblade, or The Great Old One a Archfey, or anything in between. How a character plays mechanically versus how they are described do not have to be the same. I can easily skin a Fighter with Archery as a Wandslinger that uses a 2-handed battlestaff to shot bolts of energy. The descriptions are very different, but mechanically it's still a fighter using a Longbow. It's also helpful to remember that in addition the Hexblade gets 2 free 1/2 feats (Weapon Master and Moderately Armored) AND can sub for a more desirable stat ON TOP of their once per rest curse, that also does more than grant Temp HP to killed targets. For the reasons already pointed out. The GOO patron is equivalent to a modified Message cantrip. Roughly equal to 1/3 of the Magic Initiate feat. Hexblade gets 1 feat (moderately armored and weapon master minus stat bumps), substitutes a less desirable stat for a more desirable one, and a once per rest ability. Fiend gets on always on ability (equivalent to stat substitution), Archfey gets a per rest ability (equivalent to Hexblade curse), Great Old One gets a modified message cantrip (1/3 the value of medium armor, shield, and martial weapon proficiency). Hexblade gets the power equivalent of 3 patrons in 1. Disagree. Once again, bringing this discussion back to the relevance of the original post, this is about creating a mechanical effective and balanced GISH. Not about the merits of the Hexblade. My argument is the Hexblade is a poor model for a GISH because: 1) Stat substitution is lazy and boring compared to more interesting and creative mechanical solutions 2) It does not follow the mold of previous archetype structure. [/QUOTE]
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