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The Lost Art of Dungeon-Crawling
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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8250419" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>Yes, a few people have responded with actual attempts at conversation and examples. And I appreciate that. Most are just dismissively stating and restating that dungeons are awesome without any attempt at explanation or examples.</p><p></p><p>You mean exactly like they have been?</p><p></p><p>From my end as well. People keep saying dungeons are awesome, and I keep asking what makes dungeons so awesome, and the response (except for 2-3 people) has been "well, they just are."</p><p></p><p>Yep. My fault. I was using the word wrong.</p><p></p><p>That sounds like an interesting set up. Thanks for the example. So what will the PCs do in that dungeon?</p><p></p><p>Exactly. Dungeons as a spelunking expedition rather than a protracted home invasion.</p><p></p><p>I've played a lot of D&D over the years, in that time I have never had a DM run a dungeon that wasn't a hack-and-slash-athon. Not once. The vast majority have been published modules. And across several dozen DMs. They've all been kick in the door, murder, loot, kick in the door...</p><p></p><p>Sure. And thanks for the attempt at an answer.</p><p></p><p>I haven't lost "the wonder". I just dislike dungeoncrawls because, to date, to a dungeon, they've all been basically linear slug-fests.</p><p></p><p>I think a properly prepared, i.e. fully prepared, town can be a lot more interesting than a dungeon because you can go anywhere and do anything. Because it's not just a point crawl. Even if it become monotonous. That's the players' choice. If they want to go bagel shopping for an hour, it's their call. If they want to check in with the inn, jobs board, or local guilds for something to do, great. It's not the DM's job to spoon feed them or lead them by the nose. I think it's the DM's job to provide hooks and rumors and clues, but generally to play the environment the PCs are engaged in, whatever that environment happens to be.</p><p></p><p>I feel that combat as sport is boring and rote. Especially in 5E. The odds are already stacked drastically in the PCs' favor. Winning a fight is a foregone conclusion. Unless the DM chooses to throw deadly fights at you. Which at least they would be more interesting and intense than a boring old square off with perfectly balanced CR monsters for the party.</p><p></p><p>I think solving things in a unique way and avoiding combat is part of combat as war. I don't see it as part of combat as sport. It would effectively be cheating at the sport.</p><p></p><p>I'd rather express myself through finding interesting and novel ways to avoid fights or end them before they start. I don't think of squaring off in a fight I'm all but predetermined to win as a form of self expression. I find it boring.</p><p></p><p>I think the narrative is whatever emerges in play at the table. There's no greater narrative we should be worried about. The story we're telling is whatever happens in the game as we play it. If I want a narrative told to me, I'll read a book.</p><p></p><p>I think combat as sport is wildly unrealistic in every imaginable way. Whatever little narrative there is in a game is destroyed if you have characters acting in wildly unrealistic ways. Like willingly squaring off for a fair and perfectly balanced fight where someone (almost always the monsters) will end up dead. That's not how you fight. That's how you die.</p><p></p><p>I think character death and low hit points are far more interesting an obstacle to deal with. I'd rather have a character with low hit points who tries, fails, and dies, than a character with high hit points and can't fail even if he tried. That seems utterly boring to me. There's no challenge. It's not exciting if there's no risk. It's only a name on a character sheet. But whatever advancement I achieved I get to own because it was hard to get that advancement. It wasn't a foregone conclusion that will only not happen if the dice go really, really badly for me in some freak accident. I want whatever advancement I get or loot I get to feel earned. Not like it's a participation trophy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8250419, member: 86653"] Yes, a few people have responded with actual attempts at conversation and examples. And I appreciate that. Most are just dismissively stating and restating that dungeons are awesome without any attempt at explanation or examples. You mean exactly like they have been? From my end as well. People keep saying dungeons are awesome, and I keep asking what makes dungeons so awesome, and the response (except for 2-3 people) has been "well, they just are." Yep. My fault. I was using the word wrong. That sounds like an interesting set up. Thanks for the example. So what will the PCs do in that dungeon? Exactly. Dungeons as a spelunking expedition rather than a protracted home invasion. I've played a lot of D&D over the years, in that time I have never had a DM run a dungeon that wasn't a hack-and-slash-athon. Not once. The vast majority have been published modules. And across several dozen DMs. They've all been kick in the door, murder, loot, kick in the door... Sure. And thanks for the attempt at an answer. I haven't lost "the wonder". I just dislike dungeoncrawls because, to date, to a dungeon, they've all been basically linear slug-fests. I think a properly prepared, i.e. fully prepared, town can be a lot more interesting than a dungeon because you can go anywhere and do anything. Because it's not just a point crawl. Even if it become monotonous. That's the players' choice. If they want to go bagel shopping for an hour, it's their call. If they want to check in with the inn, jobs board, or local guilds for something to do, great. It's not the DM's job to spoon feed them or lead them by the nose. I think it's the DM's job to provide hooks and rumors and clues, but generally to play the environment the PCs are engaged in, whatever that environment happens to be. I feel that combat as sport is boring and rote. Especially in 5E. The odds are already stacked drastically in the PCs' favor. Winning a fight is a foregone conclusion. Unless the DM chooses to throw deadly fights at you. Which at least they would be more interesting and intense than a boring old square off with perfectly balanced CR monsters for the party. I think solving things in a unique way and avoiding combat is part of combat as war. I don't see it as part of combat as sport. It would effectively be cheating at the sport. I'd rather express myself through finding interesting and novel ways to avoid fights or end them before they start. I don't think of squaring off in a fight I'm all but predetermined to win as a form of self expression. I find it boring. I think the narrative is whatever emerges in play at the table. There's no greater narrative we should be worried about. The story we're telling is whatever happens in the game as we play it. If I want a narrative told to me, I'll read a book. I think combat as sport is wildly unrealistic in every imaginable way. Whatever little narrative there is in a game is destroyed if you have characters acting in wildly unrealistic ways. Like willingly squaring off for a fair and perfectly balanced fight where someone (almost always the monsters) will end up dead. That's not how you fight. That's how you die. I think character death and low hit points are far more interesting an obstacle to deal with. I'd rather have a character with low hit points who tries, fails, and dies, than a character with high hit points and can't fail even if he tried. That seems utterly boring to me. There's no challenge. It's not exciting if there's no risk. It's only a name on a character sheet. But whatever advancement I achieved I get to own because it was hard to get that advancement. It wasn't a foregone conclusion that will only not happen if the dice go really, really badly for me in some freak accident. I want whatever advancement I get or loot I get to feel earned. Not like it's a participation trophy. [/QUOTE]
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