D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

I'm with @ezo on this one. This is the sort of thing where the number system for stats just breaks down due to the engine's simplicity. I prefer to apply common sense in these situations, and a human being is simply not equipped to break through stone walls without supernatural aid. The fact that larger creatures do have that ability with the same stat number has to be explained some other way, likely due to size. Quite frankly I'd rather such being simply had a higher strength if you wanted them doing that sort of thing. In any case, the numbers alone are nonsensical in situations like this.

Same with Vampires? Fiends? Constructs? Elementals? I mean, Frankenstien's Monster has been shown to be superhumanly strong, Flesh Golems are 19 strength and medium sized. What about werewolves, seen them often depicted shattering wooden doors like it was nothing, they are only 15 strength, the Werebear is the strongest at 19, all medium sized. Mummies? 16 to 18 strength.

At what point is "common sense" going to say... hey, all these things I've seen depicted as superhumanly strong, are all weaker and the same size as that human fighter... wonder why they can't do the same things....

 

[Micah Sweet]

So... it doesn't make sense to you that people with supernatural blood.... are capable of supernatural feats....

Sure, uh huh. I totally buy that that just doesn't make any sense to you.

I don't buy the supernatural blood explanation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Same with Vampires? Fiends? Constructs? Elementals? I mean, Frankenstien's Monster has been shown to be superhumanly strong, Flesh Golems are 19 strength and medium sized. What about werewolves, seen them often depicted shattering wooden doors like it was nothing, they are only 15 strength, the Werebear is the strongest at 19, all medium sized. Mummies? 16 to 18 strength.

At what point is "common sense" going to say... hey, all these things I've seen depicted as superhumanly strong, are all weaker and the same size as that human fighter... wonder why they can't do the same things....

Make humans supernaturally strong, explicitly, and you'll have an argument. I still don't like it, but you'll have an argument. Vague assumptions based partially on compared game numbers and mostly on how you personally want things to work in your vision of a fantasy world aren't going to cut it for me.

 

[ECMO3]

What is the equivalent to out-ranging and slowing your opponent in a charisma check?

Because you have very low damage and only slow him if you hit and not by much, not anything any other character can do at this level and generally do more effectively. You aren't winning any fight with Ray of Frost, even if you do hit, which is not likely. You reduce movement 10 feet this round only, if you hit. Any character has a good chace of doing that just by throwing caltrops on the ground. Honestly you will usually be better off doing something else to assist your allies.

Meanwhile someone with a 10 Charisma has a 30% chance of "winning" a medium difficulty Charisma check and a 5% even at a "hard" difficulty check. They are more effective at Charisma checks than your character is at combat.

Just face it, the straw man character you built is not GOOD at combat. Can you take actions in combat, sure, but you are not good at it and you are worse comparatively than someone with no bonus or no proficiency is at the social pillar.

Rolling with a 40% of success on a single roll challenge is equivalent to anything I could do with Ray of Frost in a fight? Gibbering Mouther, CR 2, speed of 10 fight, low AC. Ray of Frost reduces their speed by... 10 ft. That single cantrip turns that from a fight into target practice.

They have both a ranged attack and a confusion effect.

You are only looking at the narrowest possible interpretation, and refusing anything else.

I am telling you that character is bad at combat, because it is.

Ah yes, just like Clerics and Warlocks could be so much better if they did not insist on investing in Wisdom and Charisma respectively, right?

If I said that, I meant constitution, I will correct it if I can find it.

Positioning matters a whole lot more. Ranged characters are often not even targeted by attacks, compared to melee characters.

Casters are almost always targeted if they can be targeted.

And there is your assumption. First, 18 is the best possible for them until well-beyond level 3.

No technically it isn't. The best possible using standard equipment at level 1 is 19 if they took superior technique fighting style.

Secondly, per time attacked is the key and thirdly... you just decide to assume that the wizard will be targeted almost as often. For no other reason than it supports your argument.

I said the fighter will not be attacked 250% as much as the Wizard. The fighter will presumably be attacked more, a lot more but not two and a half times as much, especially if the Wizard is casting spells.

There are basically 4 things that go into deciding who to target:

1. Who is the easiest/least dangerous to target (this is probably the fighter)
2. Who you can hit the easiest (this is the Wizard you built)
3. Who is casting spells (this is the Wizard if they are casting spells)
4. Who is easiest to kill by focused fire (also the wizard)

Let me put it this way; using an example from play: 4 Orcs are surrounding and attacking the fighter. The Wizard casts Toll the Dead at one of them. All four of them leave to go attack the caster. Actually happened in play.

They are going to do the same to you.

To be clear, the melee fighter will take more attacks that you will, but not enough to make up for your pathetic AC. There is a reason Shield is widely regarded by many as the most OP spell in the game for its level.

And here it is. "Yes, of course your wizard isn't going to do as well. The moment you cast a single spell you are such a massive threat that every single enemy on the entire battlefield will immediately rush towards you, taking free attacks from the fighters and rogues, all to kill you as soon as possible."

Absolutely if they can. Also it is only free attack from the fighter and Rogue (not attacks) and only if they have not already used their reaction.

This is what makes it so effective to rush past the melee attackers. They only get one reaction (with the exception of Cavaliers I think). In the example I gave above with 4 Orcs there is no reason not to. Why wouldn't you? ESPECIALLY if you think Wizards have it so easy and are so OP.

With that as you position... remind me again why spellcasters aren't just as, if not more powerful than martials in combat? I don't tend to suicide rush weak, ineffectual targets in a combat.

Taking an AOO is not suicide. As you noted spell casters have "encounter enders" and letting them cast those at will is suicide.

Frankly, do we even need to discuss further? This just PROVES the point, so much more effectively than anything I could say.

What about making a skill check requires me to be actively looking at the flower?

The rules do. Making a skill check is an action. IF you are basing your check on what the flower looks like (which might be at disadvantage or impossible) you need to be looking at it.

Now if you are having your familiar identify and tell you mentally, that is a different story, but that uses the familiar's intelligence.

It is not just looking at the flower though, same if you are looking for a secret door or looking to see if a chest is trapped or trying to find a hidden guard. All those things must use your familiar's senses RAW.

More to the point, if you want the Wizard to actually be more balanced, why would you bend the rules to HEAVILY favor them. A Wizard in a homebrew game who can use a homebrew rule to do skill checks using the Wizard's abilities while also using the familiar's senses is MUCH more powerful in the exploration pillar. IF you are upset about them being too powerful why are you bending the rules to make them more powerful?

If someone says a name, and I roll to see if I know the name, does RAW state I need to be actively looking at the name written out on paper to make the check?

If it is a skill check you make to see if you know the name, you can not do it while using the familiar's senses. Those are the rules.

Man, you should tell all those people with field guides on plants and animals how it is nearly impossible to identify something from memory, and really really hard if you can't touch or taste it.

If they try to do it in a D&D 5E game I am running I will.

And you are trying to hit an AC 17 with disadvantage.

Goblins have an AC 15.

 

[ECMO3]

So the words "bounded accuracy" have no meaning to you?

Tell me, have you actually seen a fighter try to solo, say, 8 skeletons? More? I had a DM once who was very new and tried to make unique "nightmare" challenges for each player. For the Cleric he created a literal endless horde zombies. Cleric was stuck fighting them while the rest of the party did their own things. The cleric player was BORED. It was too easy. Sure, they were burning through spell slots in the nightmare, but they were untouchable for multiple minutes of continuous fighting, because they could slaughter zombies by the dozens with a single spell.

Sure, the wizard isn't going to use dominate monster on a skeleton. That would be stupid. But if 8 skeletons are charging the party, they CAN cast shatter and destroy all of them with a single spell. Where it would take the fighter three rounds of combat to do so.

Yes, I think at 17th level a fighter will generally take down more Skeletons than a Wizard will.

It is going to be very rare that a Wizard will be able to get 8 skeletons in a single AOE, let alone an AOE that will eliminate more than 3 or 4 (the number a fighter can reliably destroy at this level in a single turn).

Oh noes! A legendary resistance on my 2nd level spell! Whatever shall I do! I only have ELEVEN other spell slots stronger than that and two more of the same level.

Sure but only 2 more rounds to use them before the Dragon is killed by your allies.

Like I said at high level damage is often the best course of action.

I really hope he doesn't keep using them on my 2nd and 3rd level spells while my 6th, 7th and 8th level spells are waiting.

He will probably die before he runs out and at that point you will have contributed nothing to the encounter. Really the most likely outcome is you lose some hit points (to drain your allies healing resources) and you lose some spell slots.

Most of those take an action.

No most of them take a legendary action or a bonus action. Some take an action but not most at this level.

Leave it which way? Also, why would I place them on the dragon. I place them IN FRONT of the dragon. Okay, maybe I place them on him if we are in a big arena. But, man 2 legendary actions, on an attack that hits none of my allies, to move 10 ft forward (because of difficult terrain) which... might not even get him fully out of the web, since it is 20 ft

You don;t play ggames with Dragons much do you.

It is 40 feet flying and he can fly right off the ground, but that is not what he is going to do most likely, he also has a burrowing speed of 30 feet (15 using a Legendary) ..... burrowing which gives him full cover against your allies unless they go in your web to get him.

Again, how am I losing in this exchange? I just procced 2 legendary actions and limited the Dragon's ability to respond to the rest of our actions.

Legendary actions recharge every round. It is not like he runs out of them. If there was no one in range to hit, then there was no one to use them on anyway.

Using a Legendary action does not take a reacion, so it does not take away his ability to respond to anything.

Oh, well maybe he makes a tail attack... against who?

If he doesn't have 2 Legendary actions to use to leave the Web before it takes effect, then by definition he had someone within 15 feet this round. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you knew the Dragon simply couldn't leave.

Oh yes, the line of breath weapon, totally just as effective when he can't move and we can scatter.

His beath weapon (and Dragonfear) are his most effective abilities even if he is only targeting one person. And you can't scatter because he has not made his save until his turn and you don't know if he will be able to move (unless he has already taken his legendary action and left, in which case you do know.

Also, a 1 in 3 chance? Meaning that if he gets it, chooses to fail the save, and blasts a party member or two... there is a 66% chance on his next turn, he is stuck in place and needs to waste his entire turn to get into range to hit anyone?

to be clear - here is the scenario you are talking about:

IF he has already used 2 legendary actions this turn when you cast
AND
IF he fails his save
AND
IF he does not use Legendary Resistance
AND
IF he gets back his Lightning Breath
AND
IF an average of 65 points of Lightning damage does not break your concentration (because he is going to target the guy who has him webbed)
AND
IF you hang on to concentration until the end of the next turn through the Lair action which will also target you
AND
IF he does not get back his Lightning breath on the next turn

Yes if all those things happen he will be restrained at the start of his next turn and would need to use an action to try and break free to get into range to damage anyone. That is a corner case indeed!

And again, all of this, from one of the WEAKEST spells the wizard could have cast. Not in terms of "well I could have done so much more" but in terms of... just HOW many resources I have left to spend on this fight.

It is never going to happen in play. It is never going to land and restrain him. It is a wasted spell slot.

More limited than ALL OF MY SPELL SLOTS. Yeah, they get three 2nd level, ELEVEN other slots of higher level. That's 14 > 5

I already pointed out How Giants Might and grapple is way more effective than your 2nd level spell, just on the mechanics you are trying to achieve and it lasts an entire fight. Now consider it also adds about 20 points of damage in a fight every time it is used (about equal to fireball) .... so his 5 giants mights are more powerful in play than all your 2nd and 3rd level slots combined.

Then he runes:

Fire Rune can Restrain an enemy
Stone Rune can incapacitate him
Storm Run can give the Dragon disadvantage once a turn for the entire fight.

He gets each of these twice and that is in addition to multiple defensive abilities and 3 attacks a round every single round (and 8 using action surge)
.

Yeah, I'm sure between the fighter who either uses a 1-handed weapon AND A SHIELD or a TWO-HANDED weapon, the fact that one of their hands is full of dragon is just as impactful as the wizard who can use neither of those things.

Look you said something that was not true.

If he is grappling with a shield he will not be using a one-handed or two-handed weapon. If he is grappling with a 2 handed weapon he will not be using a two handed weapon. That is obvious, but in both of those cases he will still be attacking every round and will usually be effective at it.

You claimed he could not attack, that is just factually false.

Yes, please grapple and then have a shield in your other hand. I'd love you to be stuck making unarmed kicks against the dragon. You will be so effective dealing 6 damage at a time.

If you don't have a natural weapon, but to be clear that is 6 damage at a time, three times per turn plus giant's might damage, plus any damage you get from your runes, plus any damage you get from any other modifiers and that is the LOW BAR.

The guy with the Maul or Pole Arm simply pulls out a backup weapon like a longsword.

Only if the fighter is stupid enough to stand in melee range.

You mean where he is best positioned to actually kill the thing you cast web on?

As you mentioned this is not a particularly difficult encounter, but it is a crapload harder of the Dragon can hang around and just keep breathing on you with lightning.

Wow. Yeah, lair actions are a thing. You should check those out. Also, it isn't a try with a 20 DC dex save, and if the Rune Knight stands up...

Oh it is in the Dragon's Lair? I will add that to the list of things the Wizard needs to overcome to maintain his web

It is a DC 15 Dex save or be knocked prone, and if he fails after using indomitable he is knocked prone and restrained. This does not break the grapple though and it is a DC 10 strength check as an action to try to stand up .... which he makes with advantage.

so what? The entire point was to damage the knight, then attack without disadvantage.

IF he goes before the Rune Knight can stand up and if the Rune Knight is not grappling from 10 foot away with reach (which all of them get in Giants might at 18th level).

For someone constantly going off about all his high-level play experience, you don't seem to have a terribly high grasp of tactics here.

Oh I have a good grasp of tactics and Dragons. You are the one who pretty much wasted an entire spell slot throwing out web.

In social situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice.
In exploration situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice. DESPITE building my character to be quite good here.

Look it is a team game, just because someone else is the "Default Choice" doesn;t mean you aren['t playing.

Going back to basketball (which does have defined roles by the way), just because someone is a better shooter and is the default choice to pass the ball to for a jumper it does not mean another player doesn't get to take a jumper or two when the best player is unguarded.

Try to be successful with the opportunities you get instead of complaining about the opportunities someone else gets. If this doesn't work try to find a smaller gaming group or play a 1-on-1 where you are doing everything.

In combat situations, I tend to not deal the most damage, nor have the debilitating effects of the others. My largest contribution to date has been taking enough attacks that I drop to zero instead of the more effective characters.

So do I especially when I am playing full caster, but also when I am playing a Ranger or Paladin. At high level though, damage (and defense) is often the most effective approach for a lot of enemies.

 

[Clint_L]

Sure, literally jumping over a mountain is likely a bit much. Other than teleportation or plane shift even casters can't move that far in a single action.

But what about jumping 100 ft? That is literally 1/5 of what it is possible for a caster to do in a single action. Is that more doable?

Not for me, no. For me that's way into superhero territory. Not unless the character has magic, an item, or some other supernatural gift. Gamma radiation. Born on Krypton. Radioactive spider.

I don't know what to tell you. For me, things like that would turn non-supernatural characters into something I don't like in my fantasy RPG. It would totally wreck immersion for me. I strongly suspect that I am in the large majority here.

For me, the cool thing about some classes is that they can do amazing things without magic. A champion fighter kicks all kind of butt, a battle master is more often then not the MVP in the combat pillar, and so on. Have you seen what the updated berserker barbarian does? And, of course, there are supernatural options for those players who want to add supernatural elements. Eldritch knights are a thing. Psi warriors. Echo knights. Rune knights. Arcane archers (I mean, the last one sucks, but that's an implementation issue). And that's before multi-classing.

The underlying issue is that you are pitching a class fantasy that seems to be very much in the minority. That doesn't make you wrong, but you keep trying to argue as if your subjective opinion is the logically correct one. It's not. It's just your taste.

It's also not going to happen anytime soon. We already know what the 2024 fighter looks like. Most folks think it's pretty good! If it still isn't what you need, then that's fine. Time to home-brew up something better. But telling everyone over and over that they are wrong to like what they like isn't going anywhere, IMO.