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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9329790" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Now, I will admit, I didn't know the Mississipi had a powerful current, I just remembered it was a wide river. So maybe that one does take a check, except... who says it would be DC 20? An average of 600,000 cubic feet is the highest in the USA... but the highest in the WORLD is 7,380,765.34 cubic feet per second, with another river having 1,454,964 cubic feet per second. </p><p></p><p>So, these would clearly be higher DCs, right? And the system caps at 30, for tasks that are nearly impossible for god-like beings. So, since the Mississipi is half of what the second strongest river current is, that would make far more sense as a DC 12 or 15. After all... DCs are universal.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, you declare the water as difficult terrain... but is it? That is based solely on the current, which is why there is a DC. You are double dipping. Difficult terrain would be for things in the water, flotsam, lots of fish, heavy vegetation, not the current of the water. So, we are back up to 10 ft per round. </p><p></p><p>Except... weirdly... you don't account for the action? A player can action dash on their turn, not just move. So it would actually be 20 ft per round. </p><p></p><p>So, 20 ft per round makes that 250 checks, sure we can say at +0, I'll even give you the DC 15. DMG says that would be about 4 attempts per hit, so that would mean 1,000 turns, which translates to... about an hour and half swim. Which won't kill anyone from exhaustion. Even if I double that because you refuse to allow dash, that is only three hours. Double again because you insist it must be difficult terrain, and I'm looking at six hours. </p><p></p><p>So yeah, if you adjudicate more fairly, even if you insist on rolling because I mentioned the Missisipi... it still is possible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, go find a college professor, give them an 80 lbs bag, and tell them to march 24 miles a day for a month. I mean, it isn't like we can look at a famous hiking location like the Appalachian trail, where experienced hikers consistently go, and find that they carry way less and average 12 to 16 miles per day on the high end, right?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ape statblock is meant to represent a gorilla. Silverback is just the term for the biggest alpha in the group. And whether they are 20 men or 4 men strong... most people are 1 average man strong, not four times that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Since when does gaining levels in 5e require training how to climb? Sure, they have combat expeirence, but just because you took a martial arts class doesn't mean you know how to climb a building. </p><p></p><p>Also, you seemed to miss something. 6 seconds. That's how long it would take them. Look on people asking advice on climbing, and many people say things like "<em>some routes are 40 ft and can be climbed in under five [minutes]</em>"</p><p></p><p>Double the distance (with handholds) in <strong><em><u>one-fiftieth the time</u></em></strong>.</p><p></p><p>But yeah, totally not beyond human limitations to climb fifty times faster than most humans.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It could be magic. That's how I've done it. But the larger point was... no, a DnD world does not mostly resemble 1451 Europe, or what modern humans are capable of. It is a place steeped in the impossible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah. they embrace it so much they refuse to acknowledge any rule that breaks with what they believe reality should be. Hence, the endless barrage of threads like this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It says Natural Armor, it doesn't specify that that armor is 17+2 for Dex. It could very easily be a natural armor of 19.</p><p></p><p>Even if you demand it is 17, that is still the equivalent of Steel Half-plate, and you can argue the difference is because of weaker scales at the joints and the wings.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... stronger than a rhino, like I said. Now, do you know how bonkers strong a rhino even is? I'll give you a hint, they can flip cars for fun. And a Pit fiend is as much stronger than that rhino, as a Gorilla is to a human man.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Meant to say "as fast as"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Did you read the initial request? </p><p></p><p><strong>Original</strong>: <em>So no matter what you have to imagine a knight getting powerful enough to 1v1 the Devil in a fight.</em></p><p><strong>FrogReaver</strong>: <em>or just a human fighter. What’s the devil doing that requires anything more?</em></p><p><strong><u>My response to Frogreaver you quoted</u></strong>. </p><p></p><p>The original statement was for The Devil, caps, as in Lucifer. So I responded with a non-named, standard Pitfiend of which there are hundreds, since there isn't a canonical 5e statblock for Asmodeus. </p><p></p><p>So, look at my post, and think, does this sound like a foe that some dude with a sword, from 1400's France, could kill? Normal human dude with normal human strength, and a normal steel sword and shield. Against a being that, according to the abstractions, could casually flip cars with one hand, is skin is as good as the best armor, and can match a charging knight on horseback by FLYING. </p><p></p><p>And then, could that knight face this thing's boss that can slap it around like a naughty child.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9329790, member: 6801228"] Now, I will admit, I didn't know the Mississipi had a powerful current, I just remembered it was a wide river. So maybe that one does take a check, except... who says it would be DC 20? An average of 600,000 cubic feet is the highest in the USA... but the highest in the WORLD is 7,380,765.34 cubic feet per second, with another river having 1,454,964 cubic feet per second. So, these would clearly be higher DCs, right? And the system caps at 30, for tasks that are nearly impossible for god-like beings. So, since the Mississipi is half of what the second strongest river current is, that would make far more sense as a DC 12 or 15. After all... DCs are universal. Additionally, you declare the water as difficult terrain... but is it? That is based solely on the current, which is why there is a DC. You are double dipping. Difficult terrain would be for things in the water, flotsam, lots of fish, heavy vegetation, not the current of the water. So, we are back up to 10 ft per round. Except... weirdly... you don't account for the action? A player can action dash on their turn, not just move. So it would actually be 20 ft per round. So, 20 ft per round makes that 250 checks, sure we can say at +0, I'll even give you the DC 15. DMG says that would be about 4 attempts per hit, so that would mean 1,000 turns, which translates to... about an hour and half swim. Which won't kill anyone from exhaustion. Even if I double that because you refuse to allow dash, that is only three hours. Double again because you insist it must be difficult terrain, and I'm looking at six hours. So yeah, if you adjudicate more fairly, even if you insist on rolling because I mentioned the Missisipi... it still is possible. Okay, go find a college professor, give them an 80 lbs bag, and tell them to march 24 miles a day for a month. I mean, it isn't like we can look at a famous hiking location like the Appalachian trail, where experienced hikers consistently go, and find that they carry way less and average 12 to 16 miles per day on the high end, right? Ape statblock is meant to represent a gorilla. Silverback is just the term for the biggest alpha in the group. And whether they are 20 men or 4 men strong... most people are 1 average man strong, not four times that. Since when does gaining levels in 5e require training how to climb? Sure, they have combat expeirence, but just because you took a martial arts class doesn't mean you know how to climb a building. Also, you seemed to miss something. 6 seconds. That's how long it would take them. Look on people asking advice on climbing, and many people say things like "[I]some routes are 40 ft and can be climbed in under five [minutes][/I]" Double the distance (with handholds) in [B][I][U]one-fiftieth the time[/U][/I][/B]. But yeah, totally not beyond human limitations to climb fifty times faster than most humans. It could be magic. That's how I've done it. But the larger point was... no, a DnD world does not mostly resemble 1451 Europe, or what modern humans are capable of. It is a place steeped in the impossible. Yeah. they embrace it so much they refuse to acknowledge any rule that breaks with what they believe reality should be. Hence, the endless barrage of threads like this. It says Natural Armor, it doesn't specify that that armor is 17+2 for Dex. It could very easily be a natural armor of 19. Even if you demand it is 17, that is still the equivalent of Steel Half-plate, and you can argue the difference is because of weaker scales at the joints and the wings. So... stronger than a rhino, like I said. Now, do you know how bonkers strong a rhino even is? I'll give you a hint, they can flip cars for fun. And a Pit fiend is as much stronger than that rhino, as a Gorilla is to a human man. Meant to say "as fast as" Did you read the initial request? [B]Original[/B]: [I]So no matter what you have to imagine a knight getting powerful enough to 1v1 the Devil in a fight.[/I] [B]FrogReaver[/B]: [I]or just a human fighter. What’s the devil doing that requires anything more?[/I] [B][U]My response to Frogreaver you quoted[/U][/B]. The original statement was for The Devil, caps, as in Lucifer. So I responded with a non-named, standard Pitfiend of which there are hundreds, since there isn't a canonical 5e statblock for Asmodeus. So, look at my post, and think, does this sound like a foe that some dude with a sword, from 1400's France, could kill? Normal human dude with normal human strength, and a normal steel sword and shield. Against a being that, according to the abstractions, could casually flip cars with one hand, is skin is as good as the best armor, and can match a charging knight on horseback by FLYING. And then, could that knight face this thing's boss that can slap it around like a naughty child. [/QUOTE]
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