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<blockquote data-quote="ezo" data-source="post: 9329980" data-attributes="member: 7037866"><p>True, since gorillas <em>are</em> apes, we could go that route... but since their are four types of traditional apes, and gorillas are by far the strongest of those, one stat block really has to encompass an average of them all.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, no, no, no...</p><p></p><p>While DCs are universal, there are far more rivers with low flow rates. The increase of flow rates is expontential, <strong>not linear</strong>. The Mississippi is 10th in the WORLD. I was probably being generous giving it a (comparatively) lowly DC 20 for this scenario. So, not DC 12 or even 15, but clearly 20 or likely higher.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Fine, we can go with your version of difficult terrain, and guess what? The Mississippi is not clean, clear water. It has "things in the water" like floatsam, fish, vegetation (heavy at times), and much more. So, still difficult terrain.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I didn't want to be presumptive on that since the limit under the chase rules is typically applied to combat. But, sure, if you want. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🤷♂️" title="Man shrugging :man_shrugging:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937-2642.png" data-shortname=":man_shrugging:" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, your DC 15 is much too low. Which means you'll have several times the checks...</p><p></p><p>Therefore, we have 5000 feet, at 10 feet speed (30 - 10 (armor STR restriction) = 20, swim speed 10, difficult terrain 5, but dashing, so back to 10) per check, is 500 checks. At DC 20 (yes, 20 is generous, this is cleary a "hard" task), that equates to 10000 checks, which brings us to 16 hours and 20 minutes... or dead from exhaustion---as I said.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I <em>did</em> adjudicate "more" fairly, and if you adjudicate more realistically, it really is not possible for the "average" man. They would drown and die.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, moving the goalposts, huh? Who said 24 miles a day? You just said marching for 8 hours... which obviously the travel rules include things like periodic rest, etc. It is difficult terrain, so 12 miles, if you insist on a "distance to cover".</p><p></p><p>But, hey, let's go crazy! Why 80 lbs? Why not 150 lbs? I mean if you have a person with STR 10, the RAW is just 15 x STR score in pounds. Of course, this is why we have the variant rules. Which 80 lbs at STR 10 would be encumbered, and speed 20 not 30, which for travel would equate to 18 miles, reduced to 9 with difficult terrain.</p><p></p><p>Regardless, with STR 10 it would be hard at first (college professor or whatever) to carry 80 lbs for a "day's march", but very possible. They would still have 16 hours to rest and after a few days, would fine it easier going as they become assimulated to it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, not really... It also represents gibbons, orangutans, and chimpanzees. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>However, we can estimate these creatures are several (whatever number) times stronger than humans, with the exception of gibbons. But all this shows is the game designers didn't bother to research real-life creatures in-depth, otherwise "ape" would likely have a feature to compensate for their strength.</p><p></p><p>There is also the issue that Strength (ability) often is not treated as "strength" (how strong you actually are).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, to make that speed, you have to be a Thief subclass, having the feature Second-Story Work, which says you've gained the ability to climb faster--- that seems like some form of "training" to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't miss anything, not even the 6 seconds part. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Speed climbing (basically this scenario) currently has a world-record under 5 seconds for 15-meters (5 stories). But these contests have frequent handholds, etc. as well as safety precautions to make speed the ultimate concern, not threat to life and limb.</p><p></p><p>But to say a "normal" person could climb 9 stories in 30 seconds is frankly, pretty silly. (Actually, RAW it would be 36 seconds, not 30...) It is just another case of simple rules over realistic rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the issue is that is what WotC made it--sort of. AD&D rules leaned a bit more towards reality in fantasy.</p><p></p><p>I mean, if people <em>really</em> wanted 1451 Europe, the game should be MUCH different. What it actually is IME is a transplanted world. The level of infusion of magic also varies widely from table to table. There is no real standard.</p><p></p><p>FWIW, my personal take is extraodinary but plausible, but not magical, for such tasks. Do I have any problem attributing a heroic warrior in plate swimming a mile? No, I can go with that. The wiley thief speed climbing twice as quick as I can see people doing on YouTube? No, that's fine, it is a stretch as "mundane" but plausible in a fantasy world---without the need to say it is "magical".</p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. Your other post about how this sort of back-and-forth between mundane and fantasy simply stops progress on the real issue is spot on.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, it is almost Hulk-like. Crazy, huh?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough, typos and such happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Apologies, I did indeed miss the capital "D". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Regardless, even a 20th level Fighter with some good magic items wouldn't be able to solo a Pit Fiend... let alone the mundane knight.</p><p></p><p>FWIW, I completely agree if the game is fantasy and the PCs were mundane, they would never leave home. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ezo, post: 9329980, member: 7037866"] True, since gorillas [I]are[/I] apes, we could go that route... but since their are four types of traditional apes, and gorillas are by far the strongest of those, one stat block really has to encompass an average of them all. Oh, no, no, no... While DCs are universal, there are far more rivers with low flow rates. The increase of flow rates is expontential, [B]not linear[/B]. The Mississippi is 10th in the WORLD. I was probably being generous giving it a (comparatively) lowly DC 20 for this scenario. So, not DC 12 or even 15, but clearly 20 or likely higher. Fine, we can go with your version of difficult terrain, and guess what? The Mississippi is not clean, clear water. It has "things in the water" like floatsam, fish, vegetation (heavy at times), and much more. So, still difficult terrain. Well, I didn't want to be presumptive on that since the limit under the chase rules is typically applied to combat. But, sure, if you want. 🤷♂️ So, your DC 15 is much too low. Which means you'll have several times the checks... Therefore, we have 5000 feet, at 10 feet speed (30 - 10 (armor STR restriction) = 20, swim speed 10, difficult terrain 5, but dashing, so back to 10) per check, is 500 checks. At DC 20 (yes, 20 is generous, this is cleary a "hard" task), that equates to 10000 checks, which brings us to 16 hours and 20 minutes... or dead from exhaustion---as I said. Well, I [I]did[/I] adjudicate "more" fairly, and if you adjudicate more realistically, it really is not possible for the "average" man. They would drown and die. Oh, moving the goalposts, huh? Who said 24 miles a day? You just said marching for 8 hours... which obviously the travel rules include things like periodic rest, etc. It is difficult terrain, so 12 miles, if you insist on a "distance to cover". But, hey, let's go crazy! Why 80 lbs? Why not 150 lbs? I mean if you have a person with STR 10, the RAW is just 15 x STR score in pounds. Of course, this is why we have the variant rules. Which 80 lbs at STR 10 would be encumbered, and speed 20 not 30, which for travel would equate to 18 miles, reduced to 9 with difficult terrain. Regardless, with STR 10 it would be hard at first (college professor or whatever) to carry 80 lbs for a "day's march", but very possible. They would still have 16 hours to rest and after a few days, would fine it easier going as they become assimulated to it. Well, not really... It also represents gibbons, orangutans, and chimpanzees. :) However, we can estimate these creatures are several (whatever number) times stronger than humans, with the exception of gibbons. But all this shows is the game designers didn't bother to research real-life creatures in-depth, otherwise "ape" would likely have a feature to compensate for their strength. There is also the issue that Strength (ability) often is not treated as "strength" (how strong you actually are). Well, to make that speed, you have to be a Thief subclass, having the feature Second-Story Work, which says you've gained the ability to climb faster--- that seems like some form of "training" to me. I didn't miss anything, not even the 6 seconds part. ;) Speed climbing (basically this scenario) currently has a world-record under 5 seconds for 15-meters (5 stories). But these contests have frequent handholds, etc. as well as safety precautions to make speed the ultimate concern, not threat to life and limb. But to say a "normal" person could climb 9 stories in 30 seconds is frankly, pretty silly. (Actually, RAW it would be 36 seconds, not 30...) It is just another case of simple rules over realistic rules. Well, the issue is that is what WotC made it--sort of. AD&D rules leaned a bit more towards reality in fantasy. I mean, if people [I]really[/I] wanted 1451 Europe, the game should be MUCH different. What it actually is IME is a transplanted world. The level of infusion of magic also varies widely from table to table. There is no real standard. FWIW, my personal take is extraodinary but plausible, but not magical, for such tasks. Do I have any problem attributing a heroic warrior in plate swimming a mile? No, I can go with that. The wiley thief speed climbing twice as quick as I can see people doing on YouTube? No, that's fine, it is a stretch as "mundane" but plausible in a fantasy world---without the need to say it is "magical". Agreed. Your other post about how this sort of back-and-forth between mundane and fantasy simply stops progress on the real issue is spot on. Sure, it is almost Hulk-like. Crazy, huh? Fair enough, typos and such happen. Apologies, I did indeed miss the capital "D". :) Regardless, even a 20th level Fighter with some good magic items wouldn't be able to solo a Pit Fiend... let alone the mundane knight. FWIW, I completely agree if the game is fantasy and the PCs were mundane, they would never leave home. ;) [/QUOTE]
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